Suggestion: Change sniper rifles & LMGs to have minimum range

[Aurite]

I think to bring pistol/SMG weapons into the game more that rifles/LMG should have a minimum range of about 5, so you cant fire them unless an enemy is 5 tiles away. Also as range is increased by modding on certain scopes, the minimum range would increase by 1 aswell.

Making the fully modded out sniper rifles we ALL use have a minimum range of 6 tiles. I use 2xlmg and 4 sniper rifles in a team. I dont see any need for shotguns or smg or pistol or melee as I can use highly accurate and damaging weapons with heaps of aim from point blank.

This change would then increase the need for the smg and pistol class weapons, as wells as shotgun I believe. It would also change the dynamics of short range battles in towns or underground. Having a merc need to swap out to an mp5 when an enemy gets to close, or using a shotgun to barge into a room. As it stands I can use a sniper rifle for anything.

SMG weapons will need the range dropped to a max of 12 to 14.

It would also give the assault rifles the proper weighting. As an assault rifle will be the only weapon that can regularly hit things at 20+ range and under 5 range. Though it isnt quite as good.

As a balance I would add a single belt pouch slot to some body armour which would allow for a character to equip a long range weapon and an smg/shotgun and use the belt pouch slot for a grenade/flare/smoke.

thanks!

[osubaker33]

Originally posted by cifrelettere:

Don't let anyone delude you...SMGs and pistols are pretty much useless in this game. Why would I use a pistol when I can use a shotgun that does more damage, has better associated perks (Breach and Clear), has better debuffs, and otherwise can have the same AP cost? Why would I use an SMG even with the Run & Gun ability when I can use pretty much any other weapon and don't need to run at all...I can just gun. If you use an SMG and think you're flanking or something the enemy most likely won't die and will just run up to you and knife you or shoot you in the face the next turn. The damage on SMGs and pistols is simply way too low.

The idea that a bullet from a pistol into flesh at 20 feet is somehow 1/3 as deadly as a bullet from a rifle is completely absurd. Both are very damaging and have a lot of stopping power, but the rifle does have overall more energy and therefore more ability to penetrate materials and armor. But JA3 made the same mistake as JA2 in thinking that muzzle energy = stopping power = deadliness = damage and that's just not right.

Energy = Mass x Velocity, a small bullet traveling at very high speed does far more damage than a slow large caliber round. Shoot a deer with a 9MM, then shoot it with a .308 rifle. The 9mm is a larger caliber round but will penetrate about 4-6 inces into the deer, the .308 will blow a whole right out the other side.

[chrismyco]

the weapons are all very good.

the 5.56 MG is deadly, it does burn through ammunition but you can pretty much locked down an entire area.

sniper rifles and assault rifles are actually pretty balanced due the AP cost.

shot guns are good for causing bleed and destroying cover.

i don't bother with pistols or SMGs unless like in the real world, i run off out ammo for my rifle, assault rifle, or shot gun.


and why in the world, would a rifle be less accurate at close range.

[cifrelettere]

Originally posted by osubaker33:

Energy = Mass x Velocity, a small bullet traveling at very high speed does far more damage than a slow large caliber round. Shoot a deer with a 9MM, then shoot it with a .308 rifle. The 9mm is a larger caliber round but will penetrate about 4-6 inces into the deer, the .308 will blow a whole right out the other side.

Energy is half mass x velocity squared, actually. Anyway...

And that matters very little when we're talking about stopping power and overall damage to flesh. Rifles are used for hunting because the animals being shot are far away and are much bulkier than a human. If anything, in a lot of cases pistol rounds can cause more damage to humans than rifles because the caliber is larger (bigger wound). The game already models armor penetration. The idea that a rifle bullet of smaller caliber is somehow more damaging at all ranges than a pistol round of higher caliber is absolutely absurd. A .44 FMJ will cause a through-and-through into flesh at point blank range just as a 5.56mm will, meaning the amount of muzzle energy doesn't matter at a lot of ranges since most of it just carries the bullet farther behind the target. But a .44 is a lot bigger round and will certainly cause more damage and have more stopping power than a 5.56mm, yet in the game the 5.56mm does more damage. It was wrong in JA2 and it's wrong in JA3. There's a reason the FBI does ballistics tests for stopping power and doesn't just calculate muzzle energy.

[Aurite]

lots of great comments. How about Sniper rifle cant move and shoot in the same turn?

I keep coming back to why use a pistol/smg when a sniper rifle has huge accuracy from point blank range? Atleast a shotgun has a cone attack and bleed, but pistol/smg dont seem to have a place in the arsenal. What could we add to them?

Perhaps instead of a minimum range, maybe a change in movement?

Sniper rifle out = reduced movement or cant move and fire in the same turn?

The reason sniper rifles are not used to clear buildings by Special Forces is the shorter barrel close range smg is more manoeuvrable in a tight space and when going around corners. Whereas a sniper rifle barrel (plus silencer) enters the room 2 feet before the users eyeballs do. It just feels weird to me that my sniper rifle can do pointblank so easily.

[lx]

they dont have minimum range. i dont support this suggestion.

grenade launchers, mortars, ... what about those? they should have.

[Feldo]

@Aurite
Movement limitations wouldn't change much. At this point of the game (level 5 characters), I just have 3 snipers who won't move much (+1 shotgun, 1 MG42 and a knife/grenade), and I wait for enemies to come and die in front of me. On my last battle (in west Pantagruel), Buns made 80% of the kills without moving.

@Ix
The point is not to say that sniping rifles would shoot at close range. Of course real ones can, and the JA3 ones should be able to "fire". But being able to shoot accurately an enemy right in front of you who moves wildly and could hold your barrel... THAT should be possible but way more difficult than now. It should severely lower accuracy.
Assault rifles would be cumbersome at that ranger too, but still better than sniper rifles.
SMG could have a slightly lowered accurary, but stay rather useful at this range.
Pistols: almost no malus.
Knives: at their ideal range ^^

[lx]

a rifle might be a bit slower to handle, but it has no problem with accuracy, or ability to fire. unless you are in a submarine, or some tight space like that, which is not common in ja3.
weapons are not abstracted correctly in ja3 and this suggestion is even worse.

all of this nonsense is due the wrong abstraction of a lot of other things. for a game made 30 years ago, some compromises were acceptable, but today - its lame. copying an old game and failing to improve 1 bit of it... instead breaking every aspect, of what made the old one good.

this game is highly unlikely to be changed from its current state. even with a good suggestion, you best bet is, for someone to make a mod. its a finished product, provided as is, to a consumer market. there is no industrial practice, to change a retailed product.

[Feldo]

There will be mods to rebalance many things, that's pretty sure!

The game is good, but when a popular game is moddable, it gets modded. Jagged Alliance Back in Action got a nice Rebalance Mod in its days.

[osubaker33]

Its less that sniper rifles need to be nerfed, and more that 3 round bursts and full auto need to be buffed. The sniper rifles is deadly at long range because of its accuracy. At 10 yards im much more scared of the guy spraying 30 bullets at me than one shot from a rifle. Ill take a pistol any day of the week for home defense over a rifle. If I am hunting and a sketchy stranger walks up on me im dropping my .308 and pulling my pistol.

Originally posted by cifrelettere:

Originally posted by osubaker33:

Energy = Mass x Velocity, a small bullet traveling at very high speed does far more damage than a slow large caliber round. Shoot a deer with a 9MM, then shoot it with a .308 rifle. The 9mm is a larger caliber round but will penetrate about 4-6 inces into the deer, the .308 will blow a whole right out the other side.

Energy is half mass x velocity squared, actually. Anyway...

And that matters very little when we're talking about stopping power and overall damage to flesh. Rifles are used for hunting because the animals being shot are far away and are much bulkier than a human. If anything, in a lot of cases pistol rounds can cause more damage to humans than rifles because the caliber is larger (bigger wound). The game already models armor penetration. The idea that a rifle bullet of smaller caliber is somehow more damaging at all ranges than a pistol round of higher caliber is absolutely absurd. A .44 FMJ will cause a through-and-through into flesh at point blank range just as a 5.56mm will, meaning the amount of muzzle energy doesn't matter at a lot of ranges since most of it just carries the bullet farther behind the target. But a .44 is a lot bigger round and will certainly cause more damage and have more stopping power than a 5.56mm, yet in the game the 5.56mm does more damage. It was wrong in JA2 and it's wrong in JA3. There's a reason the FBI does ballistics tests for stopping power and doesn't just calculate muzzle energy.

Obviously no experience shooting a human but a .308 creates a huge wound cavity in an animal because of the sheer velocity. A fast moving rifle round also has a tendency to turn side wise when it gets a couple inches in creating an exponentially bigger wound. A lot of other factors also, overpentration is generally bad because not all of the energy is being imparted on the target, and a bullets tendency to yaw and fragment makes a HUGE difference. Thats why FMJ bullets are generally far less lethal. They pierce armor but don't fragment.

Id assume a human target starts to act more like a large animal though when they are wearing layers of body armor.

[cifrelettere]

Originally posted by osubaker33:

Obviously no experience shooting a human but a .308 creates a huge wound cavity in an animal because of the sheer velocity. A fast moving rifle round also has a tendency to turn side wise when it gets a couple inches in creating an exponentially bigger wound. Like you said a person is much smaller so maybe its not a good comparison. Id assume a human target starts to act more like a large animal though when they are wearing layers of body armor.

I guess let me put it this way: a .22 rifle has more muzzle energy than a .44 pistol because of its much higher velocity, but a .22 isn't going to do much without a direct hit to vitals. A .44 from a pistol will knock someone on their back. Yet in the JA world, the .22 would do more damage because of its higher muzzle energy.

[osubaker33]

a .22 is the same caliber as a .556 mm, (.223 to be exact). A .556 is argued by many to be more lethal than the 7.62 because of the .556 tendency to yaw on impact. AKA what I mentioned, turning sideways. The higher the velocity on impact, the higher the likelyhood for the bullet to fragment also. Fragmentation causes massive injuries, hence why a shotgun is so deadly at close range.

[Salinga]

The opponents are too stupid. In RL one would be sniped the others see that and avoid the field of fire. In my last fight I had set up a field of fire with the RPK and the opponents ran into it for three rounds in a row. It doesn't help to weaken the weapons. The enemies need at least a little more intelligence. I think it should be possible to stop them from running into a kill zone one after the other.

[cifrelettere]

Originally posted by osubaker33:

a .22 is the same caliber as a .556 mm, (.223 to be exact). A .556 is argued by many to be more lethal than the 7.62 because of the .556 tendency to yaw on impact. AKA what I mentioned, turning sideways

Maybe, but that isn't really modeled and in the JA world the 7.62mm actually would do more damage since they will almost always have higher muzzle energy. It's just wrong.

And I don't think anyone will ever argue that a .22 is deadly regardless of whether some bullets turn sideways or not. It has the lowest stopping power of pretty much any weapon, but in the JA world it'd do a decent amount of damage. Again, it's just wrong.

[osubaker33]

Originally posted by cifrelettere:

Originally posted by osubaker33:

Obviously no experience shooting a human but a .308 creates a huge wound cavity in an animal because of the sheer velocity. A fast moving rifle round also has a tendency to turn side wise when it gets a couple inches in creating an exponentially bigger wound. Like you said a person is much smaller so maybe its not a good comparison. Id assume a human target starts to act more like a large animal though when they are wearing layers of body armor.

I guess let me put it this way: a .22 rifle has more muzzle energy than a .44 pistol because of its much higher velocity, but a .22 isn't going to do much without a direct hit to vitals. A .44 from a pistol will knock someone on their back. Yet in the JA world, the .22 would do more damage because of its higher muzzle energy.

I think you are confusing stopping power and lethality. A bow and modern hunting arrow have 0 stopping power but can kill a grizzly bear with a single arrow due to massive internal bleeding from the serrated arrowhead. No a .556 does not have much stopping power but its very lethal.

[osubaker33]

I've been using the mod that removes the damage penalty for burst/auto and it really makes the game a lot more fun and deadlier. Its help the AI out too for those that want more difficulty since they A. Rarely snipe, B. charge straight at you, and C. use a lot of burst/full auto. Pistols are still useless though. Might try that mod that lowers their ap cost.