Suggestion for regufee camp twist

[Dreepa]

I have 2 points of critique for the twist that happens at the refugee camp.

First of all: It's pretty unfair to the player to not get any kind of warning. Most good games show something like:
"If you proceed here, you will continue with the major storyline and certain sidequest might not be available anymore".

This is really good, because right now you have to deal with a difficult fight after which you then re-load when realizing what is happening, to prepare properly.
As you can see by the many comments on the internet forums, a lot of people are very frustrated by this moment, some even claim they turned off the game when it happened.


The second suggestion would be to have mercs not start the combat next to the colonel.
This also just leads to people reloading and pre-position their mercs. It is also very random, as you might have guys standing somewhere else in the map.
If you make a big mandatory fight, just like when attacking siegfried, the mercs starting position should be hand crafted. not just random where they are atm.


Cheers

[Braincat]

Well, I agree with you at least in part. On the other hand, the appeal of the game is to get involved and see how you can deal with the new situation.

[Dreepa]

Originally posted by Braincat:

Well, I agree with you at least in part. On the other hand, the appeal of the game is to get involved and see how you can deal with the new situation.

Yeah, there are some player types that play like that, or even iron man mode, and I respect that.

However, many gamers also are achievers / hoarders / completionists / explorer types.
For these people you often have these kind of "main plot advances" confirmation dialogues.

[RainmakerLTU]

Refugee camp does not block any mission. and warning would spoil the sneaky surprise.
Granted player did battle of the Hill and talked with Biff, so if he thinks about that, he should guess at least, that such sudden invite from Corazon does not mean anything good. And compared with battle of the hill it's purely nothing, because there are no 4 waves of enemies and mortar bombardment is not explosive, but just gas.
Also important, you can choose when to do it. Going to save Biff, I met the squad coming to them early and killed them, then entered sector. Interesting, if that is only one squad that major sends, then might be possible, meet & greet them and continue on your business, because then battle will not start if you not enter sector with Biff.

First time I let Biff die, so I had only refugee camp to fight, which was hard (seemed to me then). Saving Biff is much harder, thankfully I had that MG42. Second one would be also nice.

Curious fact - in that location I found antimaterial rifle in the fridge.

[sooshon]

ugh no, strongly disagree with your opinion. one of the main things about jagged alliance since the first game is throwing surprises like this your way, thank god they followed through on that. personally that was a huge highlight of the game for me. if you want to be told everything before it happens and no surprises then use a guide or something

[Dreepa]

Originally posted by sooshon:

ugh no, one of the main things about jagged alliance since the first game is throwing surprises like this your way, thank god they followed through on that. personally that was a huge highlight of the game for me. if you want to be told everything before it happens and no surprises then use a guide or something

No, it should definitely not tell you anything about what is to happen.
Only a generic hint that saves you from the frustration. No spoiler or anything specific in it.

[Dreepa]

Originally posted by RainmakerLTU:

Refugee camp does not block any mission. and warning would spoil the sneaky surprise.
Granted player did battle of the Hill and talked with Biff, so if he thinks about that, he should guess at least, that such sudden invite from Corazon does not mean anything good. And compared with battle of the hill it's purely nothing, because there are no 4 waves of enemies and mortar bombardment is not explosive, but just gas.
Also important, you can choose when to do it. Going to save Biff, I met the squad coming to them early and killed them, then entered sector. Interesting, if that is only one squad that major sends, then might be possible, meet & greet them and continue on your business, because then battle will not start if you not enter sector with Biff.

First time I let Biff die, so I had only refugee camp to fight, which was hard (seemed to me then). Saving Biff is much harder, thankfully I had that MG42. Second one would be also nice.

Curious fact - in that location I found antimaterial rifle in the fridge.

You can only chose when to do it, by beating the fight and scamloading back to before the point. Because only after the big fight you see what is up.
Which is the frustrating part.

[sooshon]

Originally posted by Dreepa:

Originally posted by sooshon:

ugh no, one of the main things about jagged alliance since the first game is throwing surprises like this your way, thank god they followed through on that. personally that was a huge highlight of the game for me. if you want to be told everything before it happens and no surprises then use a guide or something

No, it should definitely not tell you anything about what is to happen.
Only a generic hint that saves you from the frustration. No spoiler or anything specific in it.

I didn't experience any frustration at that part, sorry that you did, and hinting at everything that is going to happen just sounds like awful storytelling, that isn't how it should be done.

[Ongen]

Originally posted by RainmakerLTU:

Refugee camp does not block any mission. and warning would spoil the sneaky surprise.
Granted player did battle of the Hill and talked with Biff, so if he thinks about that, he should guess at least, that such sudden invite from Corazon does not mean anything good. And compared with battle of the hill it's purely nothing, because there are no 4 waves of enemies and mortar bombardment is not explosive, but just gas.
Also important, you can choose when to do it. Going to save Biff, I met the squad coming to them early and killed them, then entered sector. Interesting, if that is only one squad that major sends, then might be possible, meet & greet them and continue on your business, because then battle will not start if you not enter sector with Biff.

First time I let Biff die, so I had only refugee camp to fight, which was hard (seemed to me then). Saving Biff is much harder, thankfully I had that MG42. Second one would be also nice.

Curious fact - in that location I found antimaterial rifle in the fridge.

Actually it does block some quests, first time you go to refugee camp you pick up a couple of small side quests. If you dont go turn them in before the big fight you loose the option to turn them in after. Atleast i lost 1 quest because i waited turning it in until i was in that area again.

Also the gear the enemies at the refugee camp carry is way better than the goons that easily get 1 shot killed at the hill. I could clear out the waves at the hill in 1 turn since my mercs was able to take down 1-3 guys each.

[Braincat]

Originally posted by Dreepa:

No, it should definitely not tell you anything about what is to happen.
Only a generic hint that saves you from the frustration. No spoiler or anything specific in it.

Yep. I see your point. Absolut valid. But to be honest... there are small subtle hints that something is not quite right with this meeting. Even though it's not particularly possible to prepare for an ambush from a gameplay point of view, the probability seemed high to me. So I rather packed the heavy armor, grenades and an additional machine gun.

From point of story telling, it is a good placed and excuted turning point, that confronts the player with a nice scumbag antagonist. It's all the more satisfying to fight your way out of there without a crew member biting the dust.

And yes, not all player (types) will find this equally entertaining.

[alibegoa]

Originally posted by Dreepa:

Originally posted by Braincat:

Well, I agree with you at least in part. On the other hand, the appeal of the game is to get involved and see how you can deal with the new situation.

Yeah, there are some player types that play like that, or even iron man mode, and I respect that.

However, many gamers also are achievers / hoarders / completionists / explorer types.
For these people you often have these kind of "main plot advances" confirmation dialogues.

Yeah I really did not like this, is it known what exactly triggers Biff mission? Or if you miss to speak with him at he end what triggers Corazon voice message that mission to free president is no longer needed?

[Nox]

I'd like to know what triggers biff mission too. It came very early in this playthrough and there was no way I was ready for that.

[Kameradoktorn]

Originally posted by Nox:

I'd like to know what triggers biff mission too. It came very early in this playthrough and there was no way I was ready for that.

Same here, basically had 5 guys, barely a few sectors taken on the main land, didn't really understand the rules of the game fully and that there are actual timed missions that have concequences, so I failed the biff quest :(

[gigamelon1981]

Originally posted by Dreepa:

The second suggestion would be to have mercs not start the combat next to the colonel.
This also just leads to people reloading and pre-position their mercs. It is also very random, as you might have guys standing somewhere else in the map.
If you make a big mandatory fight, just like when attacking siegfried, the mercs starting position should be hand crafted. not just random where they are atm.
Cheers

Honestly i don't get this part.
You can just use 1 team to win that battle, although admittedly hard.
Pre position your team 5 out of 6, setting overwatch.
Make sure one of them using MG.
MG is crucial on this combat.
Only one person talking to the colonel.
And that person must have good agility to run to a safe position.
Not the cliff.
After the battle start, focus on the Machine gunner. After that it would be a lot easier.
Also, you might to have 3 grenades to toss into almost dead enemies, or flashbang to drain their turn.

[FatalException]

Originally posted by gigamelon1981:

Originally posted by Dreepa:

The second suggestion would be to have mercs not start the combat next to the colonel.
This also just leads to people reloading and pre-position their mercs. It is also very random, as you might have guys standing somewhere else in the map.
If you make a big mandatory fight, just like when attacking siegfried, the mercs starting position should be hand crafted. not just random where they are atm.
Cheers

Honestly i don't get this part.
You can just use 1 team to win that battle, although admittedly hard.
Pre position your team 5 out of 6, setting overwatch.
Make sure one of them using MG.
MG is crucial on this combat.
Only one person talking to the colonel.
And that person must have good agility to run to a safe position.
Not the cliff.
After the battle start, focus on the Machine gunner. After that it would be a lot easier.
Also, you might to have 3 grenades to toss into almost dead enemies, or flashbang to drain their turn.

Notice anything?

[Dast'ro]

I'm not a fan of time triggers of main plot where I love to "see it all" though I'm sure somebody will make a mod to stop the time trigger for the refugee camp twist.