Patch 1.03 Ruined LMG

[[ScrN]PooSH]

Machine guns were way overpowered and required balance. However, the 1.03 patch tweaked them wrong, completely ruining them. LMGs are next to useless on Mission Impossible now. AR in Overwatch mode behaves much better than LMG despite AR not requiring setting up.

The Reasons Why LMG Were OP

• LMG were too accurate at far distances. A good merc (e.g., Raven) had almost 100% accuracy with LMG at a "sniper rifle range".
  
• AI is too dumb to avoid the overwatch zone. Usually, the opposite - those idiots run under LMG and perform multiple actions there, each triggering an interrupt. If the first burst didn't kill the enemy, he triggered the second, sometimes the third.

1.03 LMG Changes

• Nerfed damage.
  
• Reduced interrupt count. Now, it is based on the remaining AP - like any regular overwatch. So if a merc spends the last points on setting LMG, it triggers only twice.

LMG now feels like a peashooter on Mission Impossible. Enemies are running back and forth through the overwatch area, taking only minor damage. Moreover, a single enemy can deplete the entire interrupt count.

How LMG Should Be Balanced

• The main stats for effective LMG use must be MRK and STR. Avoid dependency on AGI or DEX since plenty of other weapons require high AGI/DEX.
  
• Restore the original damage from 1.02.
  
• Significantly drop accuracy at far distances. LMG must still be devastating at a close range, but further away, it acts more as suppressive fire than a major damage dealer.
  
• Enhance the enemy AI, so they try to avoid an Overwatch area if they are aware of it and there are other ways around it.
  
• Limit LMG's interrupt count by ammo count in the magazine, not AP.
  
• Significantly increase AP cost for LMG reload unless the merc has Heavy Weapons trait. Opportunistic Killer should not automatically reload LMG.
  
• The width of an LMG overwatch cone should be determined by Strength (higher STR = wider cone).

The Mod That Somewhat fixes MG

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3018879222

[Gonchy]

How's this for a common sense compromise:

Any changes the devs make based on "community suggestions" should be implemented as settings in the options menu. You wanna nerf machine guns? Fine, turn on that setting. Let's not establish the precedent that the loudest weirdos speak for all of us.

[Socipat]

Originally posted by Gonchy:

How's this for a common sense compromise:

Any changes the devs make based on "community suggestions" should be implemented as settings in the options menu. You wanna nerf machine guns? Fine, turn on that setting. Let's not establish the precedent that the loudest weirdos speak for all of us.

You never ran a business have you?

[atrox]

So they nerfed MGs because they are deadly? Damn, in reality they are!

Machine guns shredded troops since they appeared on the battlefield in the 19th century.

In WWI a dozen of them fended off whole armies (which acted as stupid as the game AI), in WWII the legendary MG42 was one of the most feared weapons because a single one could cut whole platoons into pieces. Literally.

In modern armies a squad has *at least* one (L)MG for the same reasons - deadly accurate, high damage, long range, suppressive fire on large areas.

And now they are nerfing LMGs because they are behaving exactly like that? I don't get it.

Seems a very shortsighted and untested change, taking away exactly the characteristics that makes up a LMG in the first place...

[Sir Samson]

it's scenarios like this that make GOG with the base setup.exe and additional update.exe's so great

[Dragonforce Changed My Life]

Yeah, I feel like the bug fix on top of multiple nerfs was a bit much. Like lowering accuracy AND damage AND number of attacks? Probably should have just done the bug fix and seen if they were still overtuned... since their effectiveness was, y'know, bugged.

I would hope they'd revert the nerfs and just leave the bugfix.

[atrox]

What makes me sad - nobody seems to complain about the ridiculous OP stealth sniper mechanic, where you are able to clear a whole encounter in one round across half the map not even being deteted.

Have seen a lot similar games, and I'm really sick of this sniper playstyle, which is so often encouraged by game mechanics.

Now this one too, as one of the viable options was taken out, reducing variety, forcing me to sniper again too. Bored and annoyed.

Seems those sniper kiddos cried loud enough in fear that their OP weapon has gotten a rival.

[sandman25dcsss]

Originally posted by Socipat:

How the devs dealt with the MG issue is exactly how devs should deal with bugs.
1) the MG got an aim bonus it was not suppose to get. Devs fixed it.
2) MG over watch was based on your max points not the points you have left. Changed to act like all the other weapons in over watch at PLAYERS request.

What is that old saying "Haters will hate". In this case soy boys want their soy.

They applied -80% damage penalty because testers were playing with those 2 bugs and complaining LMG were too powerful. Now it is time to revert the penalty and make LMG deal FIVE times more damage.

[sandman25dcsss]

Originally posted by atrox:

What makes me sad - nobody seems to complain about the ridiculous OP stealth sniper mechanic, where you are able to clear a whole encounter in one round across half the map not even being deteted.

Have seen a lot similar games, and I'm really sick of this sniper playstyle, which is so often encouraged by game mechanics.

Now this one too, as one of the viable options was taken out, reducing variety, forcing me to sniper again too. Bored and annoyed.

Seems those sniper kiddos cried loud enough in fear that their OP weapon has gotten a rival.

You missed at least 5 threads with the complaints.

[[ScrN]PooSH]

I played some more and must say that the current state of LMG is even worse than I initially thought.

Setting any other gun in Overwatch mode grants at least 2 interrupts. So even if you have a minimum AP to set up OW, two interrupts are guaranteed. That makes sense: you save one shot now to double it later.

However, it does not apply to LMG! If an LMG takes 4 AP to fire, and you have less than 8 AP left at the end of the turn, it triggers only 1 interrupt!

[Капитан Путан]

MG overwatch was stupidly broken, the nerf was totally ok.

The problem of this game is not "op sniper stealth" or "op mg overwatch" or "op melee".
The problem is silly AI:
- Enemies cant see/remove overwatch zones as player does - if they could, no mg nerf would be needed at all
- Enemies cant play stealth and camper - if they could, no stealth sniper nerf would be needed
- Enemies dont use height advantage, and there is literally no true height advantage at all (compared to Wildfire for instance)
- Enemies have terrible view site, and they are terrible at stealth detection - I can always crawl deadly close, even at the daylight
- Enemies enter sectors and move as a bulk so 1 smart grenadier can stop 30+ elite
- Mix of realtime and turnbase can easily be cheased (one can run into a crowd before the combat starts)
And so on, and so on, and so on...

This game is nice, even amazing maybe, but it simply dives too much into RPG and loses on tactics part badly to be honest.

[pedal_pusher]

MGs are still good after the nerf. They all do more damage than even the high power assault rifles, but generally cost only 4ap to fire vs the 6ap of ar. Then there's a bunch of other bonuses, like the huge cone of the minimi or the extra damage of the hk.

Just my opinion, but I think it was a really good patch overall.

[Ninth Hour]

Originally posted by atrox:

So they nerfed MGs because they are deadly? Damn, in reality they are!

Machine guns shredded troops since they appeared on the battlefield in the 19th century.

In WWI a dozen of them fended off whole armies...

I agree with this perspective and am puzzled by posts throughout this forum complaining about how a single merc, with an LMG, could kill 10+ enemy soldier in one round. It's a freakin' machine gun! That's the whole point! To be enough of a force multiplier that even a single, properly emplaced operator can take on a numerically superior force and win.

And, historically, that is what happened. At Guadalcanal, John Basilone won the Medal of Honor for singlehandedly decimating an entire regiment of Japanese soldiers (around 3000 strong) with a strategically positioned .30 cal. (and backup weapons when the machinegun ran dry).

Ideally, the solution to the balance problem would not be nerfing a weapon that functions realistically but creating maps, situations, and smart AI that circumvents or reduces this strength.

Once they become aware of your machinegunner, stop enemies from simply rushing to their doom. Have them use heavy weapons/mortars to dislodge your machine gunner. Or have their snipers target him/her. Or have them approach the gunner's blind side. If you're fighting in an enclosed map and have a gunner positioned at the end of a narrow hallway, have the enemies blow up the wall next to him/her and remove his/her cover.

At the very least, give maps ample cover to which enemies can flee at the first sign of heavy fire. There are so many more creative ways to handle the issue.

By programming the AI to be more reactive, machineguns could still be effective in ambushing enemies and killing a number outright, but once their location is known, the enemy starts taking countermeasures to reduce casualties and strike back. There would be a more challenging ebb and flow to the battle.

Even something as simple as letting the enemy wait and not come out of cover could do a lot. Boredom would push the player to stop turtling with the MG and start pushing the offensive forward.

If balance was tuned by behavior rather than stats, nerfs to weapons wouldn't strictly be necessary. In fact, marginally useful weapons could be made more powerful.

But I get that limited time and resources on the part of the devs encourage a more simplistic approach. Slashing numbers doesn't require much effort. Changing the dynamics of maps and enemy intelligence does.

[Ninth Hour]

Originally posted by atrox:

What makes me sad - nobody seems to complain about the ridiculous OP stealth sniper mechanic, where you are able to clear a whole encounter in one round across half the map not even being deteted..

This was the same issue in JA2/JA2 UB. A sniper did not need to be in visual range to land a shot. If another merc was close enough to act as spotter, torso shots would have a good change of landing (even on targets out of maximum range).

However, the earlier games simply had no rifles that could be silenced- at least vanilla JA2 did not. Therefore, stealth sniper cheese wasn't present. Instead, shooting at targets illuminated with break lights, at night, was the equivalent meta. Even if the enemies could hear the gunshot, they would all run into the lights, allowing you to pick them off without retaliation (i.e. you could see them but they couldn't see you). JA UB and 1.13 countered this strategy by having enemies throw their own break lights at you, taking away your sight advantage, and no longer running rashly into illuminated areas. In fact, if you threw break lights and remained in place, hoping to ambush the enemy, you had a chance of being ambushed yourself, when the enemies lit up your position.

JA2 UB introduced the AS Silent (AS Val), that had lower damage than other rifles and was not totally silent, so there was- in theory- still a chance for enemies in close range to detect the shooter.

But JA 1.13 and a bunch of modded JA2 maps typically included the VSS Vintorez, which was not just a silent rifle, but also one capable of burst fire, encouraging everyone to obtain one.

This is an issue that is more difficult to tune- short of removing the abiliity to silence any rifle. One possibility may be simply to reduce the noise of the weapon without removing it completely, giving enemies a chance to detect it.

In earlier games, both your mercs and the enemies could be equipped with "extended ears", which gave them better hearing. If this item is not in the game, perhaps it could be implemented to give mid to late game enemies a much better chance of hearing the report of subsonic guns.

Also, enemy behavior can be tuned. Once they become aware that they are being sniped, they can drop smoke to obscure vision or simply stay in cover, forcing your mercs to go after them.

[Will]

LMGS are statistically longer ranged than a bolt action rifle or even a scoped rifle, this is the realistic military point of view.

For example, as a military analyst when you look at a 240 Bravo's capabilities its range is listed out to 1200 meters but the Mosin Nagant, Kar98, etc are only listed between 600-800. this is because of how the weapons function its significantly easier to range a target with a 100-200 round belt and tracers every 3-7 rounds along with a spotter or 3 who can A use their scopes or binoculars and be you usually have at least a 4x on your MG/LMG also. Then someone who 99% of the time is not a trained sniper and not a long-distance hobbyist or hunter using a bolt action rifle. Games seem to always falsely portray this but it is most definitely a fallacy. Acquaint yourself with anyone who has actively used an MG/LMG in combat and I'd bet that a majority have a couple of stories on this exact thing. there is a reason why they are classified at a higher effective range. Now this doesn't mean that outliers like the various 50bmg/ 12.7mm anti-material rifles don't outrange them, but your common marksmen or distance shooter (snipers are highly trained individuals so I won't call what we see in-game that regardless of their title as that is due to their weapon and not training and proficiency like the real world) won't be using those nor do they possess the training to effectively engage a trained and or experienced machine gunner at a distance the gunner won't rapidly be able to engage. Even in basic training for the army my company had to engage targets out to 800 meters and hit them via a spotter with just iron sights and tracers. Yes, our spotters were drill sergeants and this stint was more of a reward to the company's top qualifying marksmen similar to the opportunity to use a real AT4 and not a training one.

What I'm getting at is LMGs don't need to be nerfed they need vasty buffed, they SHOULD be out killing every other weapon including mortars and grenade launchers because they realistically do that. These are the statically best weapons a squad has access to in the real-world short of fires support.

What is critical to game health is a tremendous overhaul of the AI's tactical intelligence adaptability and performance. Nerfing weapons that should be buffed tremendously instead of dealing with what is actually the issue only inflates the issue more. I do not want enemies that are mega bullet sponges and can also yeet across half the map each turn and also still take two attacking actions.

[[ScrN]PooSH]

Please remember that Jagged Alliance is a game, not a simulator. The main purpose of a game is entertainment, i.e., it must be fun to play. Realism is secondary. Nonetheless, keeping weapon behavior in the game close to its real counterparts is common sense - if possible. The weapon balance in a single-player game can be broad: don't make weapons too OP or useless - and that's enough.

The balance problem in JA3 is that most weapons are either too OP or useless. Patch 1.03's turning LMG from OP into useless didn't improve it.

The state of weapon balance in JA3 1.03 (on Mission Impossible)

• Sniper Rifles - overpowered;
  
• LMG - useless (were overpowered before);
  
• AR - mostly balanced;
  
• Shotguns - balanced (but require a specific set of perks);
  
• Melee - balanced;
  
• Explosives - fun to use (so I don't care about balance);
  
• SMG - mostly useless;
  
• PIstols - useless.