Patch 1.03 Ruined LMG

[[ScrN]PooSH]

Machine guns were way overpowered and required balance. However, the 1.03 patch tweaked them wrong, completely ruining them. LMGs are next to useless on Mission Impossible now. AR in Overwatch mode behaves much better than LMG despite AR not requiring setting up.

The Reasons Why LMG Were OP

• LMG were too accurate at far distances. A good merc (e.g., Raven) had almost 100% accuracy with LMG at a "sniper rifle range".
  
• AI is too dumb to avoid the overwatch zone. Usually, the opposite - those idiots run under LMG and perform multiple actions there, each triggering an interrupt. If the first burst didn't kill the enemy, he triggered the second, sometimes the third.

1.03 LMG Changes

• Nerfed damage.
  
• Reduced interrupt count. Now, it is based on the remaining AP - like any regular overwatch. So if a merc spends the last points on setting LMG, it triggers only twice.

LMG now feels like a peashooter on Mission Impossible. Enemies are running back and forth through the overwatch area, taking only minor damage. Moreover, a single enemy can deplete the entire interrupt count.

How LMG Should Be Balanced

• The main stats for effective LMG use must be MRK and STR. Avoid dependency on AGI or DEX since plenty of other weapons require high AGI/DEX.
  
• Restore the original damage from 1.02.
  
• Significantly drop accuracy at far distances. LMG must still be devastating at a close range, but further away, it acts more as suppressive fire than a major damage dealer.
  
• Enhance the enemy AI, so they try to avoid an Overwatch area if they are aware of it and there are other ways around it.
  
• Limit LMG's interrupt count by ammo count in the magazine, not AP.
  
• Significantly increase AP cost for LMG reload unless the merc has Heavy Weapons trait. Opportunistic Killer should not automatically reload LMG.
  
• The width of an LMG overwatch cone should be determined by Strength (higher STR = wider cone).

The Mod That Somewhat fixes MG

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3018879222

[RasaNova]

Originally posted by ScrNPooSH:

Machine guns were way overpowered and required balance. However, the 1.03 patch tweaked them wrong, completely ruining them. LMGs are next to useless on Mission Impossible now. AR in Overwatch mode behave much better than LMG despite AR do not require setting up.

The Reasons Why LMG Were OP

• LMG were too accurate at far distances. A good merc (e.g., Raven) had almost 100% accuracy with LMG at a "sniper rifle range".
  
• AI is too dumb to avoid the overwatch zone. Usually, the opposite - those idiots run under LMG and perform multiple actions there, each triggering an interrupt. If the first burst didn't kill the enemy, he triggered the second, sometimes third.

1.03 LMG Changes

• Nerfed damage.
  
• Reduced interrupt count. Now, it is based on the remaining AP - like any regular overwatch. So if merc spends the last points on setting LMG, it triggers only twice.

LMG now feels like a peashooter on Mission Impossible. Enemies are running back and forth through the overwatch area, taking only minor damage. Moreover, a single enemy can deplete the entire interrupt count.

How LMG Should Be Balanced

• Restore the original damage from 1.02.
  
• Significantly drop accuracy at far distances. LMG still must be devastating at a close range, but further away it acts more as suppressive fire rather than a major damage dealer.
  
• Enhance the enemy AI, so they try to avoid an Overwatch area if they are aware of it and there are other ways around it.
  
• LMG interrupt count should be unlimited. Enemies should try to break the LMG overwatch with grenades or Distracting Shot, not acting as meat shields.
  
• Each LMG interrupt should lower the AP of the next turn instead of using the remainder of the current one.

Although I think it's a bit drastic and/or premature to say MGs are "ruined..." I agree with your points and your proposed solutions.

[Bobo]

i Use LMG for merc with low agi/dex.Now there no need to used it either train your agi/dex or just get merc with better both stats and slaps a sniper rifle.

[Bobo]

How about LMG use more bullet per burst or drop the ammo count so they need to reload sooner and no infinite intterupt.

[Cool Breeze]

I agree, with the bug fixes the MGs were brought down to where they should have been, adding in the nerfs has made completely useless to me, I get far more out of an assault rifle now than an MG. They were already not that great because you couldn't set them up anywhere except being prone and the fact that they deal 8 damage a shot make them useless as anything more than an area denial weapon, with the new nerfs they don't even do that anymore. For the same AP cost, and less ammo, I can use an assault rifle to the same, or better, effect. Tbh I already don't like the fact that bullets somehow do less damage if you use more of them, decidedly counter-intuitive, but I can deal with that, making a niche weapon into a useless weapon only means that everyone is just going to play with single shot weapons, which is kind of boring.

[Salinga]

Originally posted by ScrNPooSH:

Machine guns were way overpowered and required balance. However, the 1.03 patch tweaked them wrong, completely ruining them. LMGs are next to useless on Mission Impossible now. AR in Overwatch mode behave much better than LMG despite AR do not require setting up.

The Reasons Why LMG Were OP

• LMG were too accurate at far distances. A good merc (e.g., Raven) had almost 100% accuracy with LMG at a "sniper rifle range".
  
• AI is too dumb to avoid the overwatch zone. Usually, the opposite - those idiots run under LMG and perform multiple actions there, each triggering an interrupt. If the first burst didn't kill the enemy, he triggered the second, sometimes third.

1.03 LMG Changes

• Nerfed damage.
  
• Reduced interrupt count. Now, it is based on the remaining AP - like any regular overwatch. So if merc spends the last points on setting LMG, it triggers only twice.

LMG now feels like a peashooter on Mission Impossible. Enemies are running back and forth through the overwatch area, taking only minor damage. Moreover, a single enemy can deplete the entire interrupt count.

How LMG Should Be Balanced

• Restore the original damage from 1.02.
  
• Significantly drop accuracy at far distances. LMG still must be devastating at a close range, but further away it acts more as suppressive fire rather than a major damage dealer.
  
• Enhance the enemy AI, so they try to avoid an Overwatch area if they are aware of it and there are other ways around it.
  
• LMG interrupt count should be unlimited. Enemies should try to break the LMG overwatch with grenades or Distracting Shot, not acting as meat shields.
  
• Each LMG interrupt should lower the AP of the next turn instead of using the remainder of the current one.

Complete agreement. Very good summary of the facts.

[HozzMidnight]

I run 2 LMGs and find them to still be worth using as long as the merc is a high quality ranged combat merc...ie high agi/marks/dex and specced to Kill Zone. I realize this is a high bar but it's not that high. A merc that starts with 80+ dex and a dex perk can get Kill Zone at level 5.

Before the nerf my melee IMP merc could kill about half of the guys he shot at (no interrupt perks, maybe 60 marks) with an HK21. It sucks that they nerfed it instead of buffing everything else but the game is already WAY too easy on MI and I say that as someone who almost always avoids entirely the highest difficulty level of any game because its usually fake challenge. This is the opposite. The AI seems just as dumb on FB as it does on MI.

Something else to consider...an AK-74 modded for interrupt and wielded by the same high quality ranged combat merc is going to kill more enemies for a lot less bullets than they will with an LMG now, using standard ammo.

[Salinga]

Ultimately, the main problem is still the non-existent AI.

Small story again because of AI. Shortly before the patch I played the fort on the island again. I went in without doing the sidequest and the first attack squad just wanted to get out.

Raven at the MG on the tower, Raider at the end of the hangar right of the tower with MG42.

The whole thing on MI.

The enemies ran like moths into the light. Was a single slaughter, can be quite funny but in the long run. It's just a little power trip.

[RejectedByAnthonyDavis]

Good gawd LMGs are just *slightly* better than assault rifles now, disregarding the fact that they still guzzle down ammo. I guess its back to rifles again. Until they also get nerfed.

This is the same balancing philosophy that killed Overwatch.

[suejak]

If they actually nerfed MGs to only have 2 OW attacks like any AR, that would be a truly mindnumbingly bad design decision.

Having lots of OW attacks with MG was essential to balance and fun. Low-agility mercs could finally be useful at something (a stationary turret-like weapon) and they truly worked as "force multipliers" like the description said. It also felt amazing to use them.

Instead of MGs requiring a special skillset like they should (e.g. high marksmanship and HP with a dash of DEX), now they're like every other weapon (but possibly worse).

Does every weapon need to require the same stats? Obviously bad for the game. Every role should prefer different stats; otherwise there's no depth to the game. Previously, machinegunners were a special role. Now they're like everything else. The depth has vanished.

They should have just increased ammo consumption and decreased effective accuracy (e.g. decrease range). This would make MGs a special force-multiplier weapon for special situations, and it would encourage players to put tankier mercs in the role (e.g. high HP).

Honestly enough to make me shelve the game.

[kayfabe]

Part of the issue with getting machine guns figured out is that if you actually use any realism as your guide rather than video game logic then things will run counter to gamer expectations rather quickly. For example, disciplined bursts from machine guns really are pretty stupidly deadly even at pretty long range. They're a pain to shlep around but magazine & scope equipped variants of the HK21 and Minimi really have historically been used expressly for suppressive fire and to outgun weapons like the dragunov. IRL the biggest weakness of squad level machine guns is at fairly short ranges rather than long ones, since screwing around on your hands and knees with a bipod equipped 20 pounder isn't great when people try to flank you, which is why the rest of the squad has assault rifles. Personally, I don't like the idea of nerfing their range. I would rather keep the damage and range pretty high but make the following changes:

1. Strongly tie the number of interrupt attacks to a combination of Health, Strength and the Heavy Weapons talent. Be fit enough to handle these things or go home. No, I don't care that it's a bit weird once the gun is already on the ground. These stats are an abstraction and Grizz and Steroid desperately need something to do with their lives.

2. Likewise give them weird overwatch cones where the width at moderate to short range drops down to bupkis if the firer has a crap Strength score since at those ranges your ability to cope with onrushing targets is intimately tied your ability to mulitask while confidently swingng around around an over 3 foot long 20 pound hunk of vibrating metal. I don't particularly mind the waifish Livewire easily murdering a single geek with a LMG from long range on her own turn when the bipod was already pointed in his general direction; that's basically what 7.62 guns are broadly for, after all and besides, she can already use a M82 for that anyway. I very much mind her being able to engage multiple targets who were yards apart during one overwatch phase inside the across-the-street ranges that are often typical of JA3 combat.

3. Rotating the firing cone while set up needs to cost more, full stop.

[suejak]

Strength should definitely factor into burst accuracy or something. Really underused stat. The more I play, the worse the design seems.

[i dont want to be around anymore]

Hard nerfing to make any weapon useless or so sub-optimal to be effectively useless is utterly terrible game balance. Especially when this game is so new. Bigtime buyer's remorse from this patch, when I was perfectly satisfied prior to it.

[Gonchy]

I never thought machine guns were overpowered. They're powerful, but they're ammo pigs, so I used them as sparingly as possible. Seemed like a good balance. Now they're ammo pigs that do very little damage, soooo why would I even bother?

[FatalException]

What feedback did they read that make them think "LMGs are to powerful" instead of "ARs and SMGs could need some help"?

I mean, fixing the current AP vs max AP thingy is fine with me, but the rest really was uncalled for.

[sandman25dcsss]

I have impression number of ammo is ignored by devs, they balance things based on damage and accuracy only. There should be a reason to spend 10 times more ammo.