Let's be honest this is a great game

[كريس]

Maybe there is some stuff missing from JA2 but this is still great. I haven't enjoyed a turn-base game this much since XCOM 2 or maybe Xenonauts.

I was thinking this on the Fleatown map with Steroid on the roof of Lallee's building firing an MG42 over the heads of the other team members, mowing down waves of the enemy. There aren't many games that let you do stuff like that.

Hopefully there will be an expansion that adds some extra features.

[Ninth Hour]

I like it, but not as much as JA2, which I still think is the best entry in the series. However, given that I have hundreds of hours in the first two games, I will admit to a familiarity bias.

That being said, JA3 is- in its attempt to be a faithful successor- a step in the right direction. In particular, I am glad for the following:

1) Return to a more granular form of turn-based combat. As much as I enjoy the latest iteration of XCom and the streamlined, two-action mechanic that it implemented (which reminded me of the free-action, half-action, and full-action rules of D&D 3.0 onward), the Action Point system provides more flexibility of action economy (e.g. you don't lose an action just by stepping one space away and can continue moving as long as you have AP, should you change your mind about your position). And it has nostalgic value for old-school gamers like myself.

2) Continuation of the IMP system. Being able to create a custom merc was a great addition in JA2 and is welcome in JA3. Shame about the iimited portrait and character model options though.

3) Quirky mercs. Many of the AIM stalwarts are back. There are a number of missing faces though. I wish you could hire from MERC as well, as in JA2. Still, it's great that your team has personality. It's what made the first two games memorable.

Unfortunately, there are a few features that I am less enthusiastic about:

1) Real-time movement continuing until the enemy spots you. Much has already been posted about this. I thought JA2 had a simple and elegant way of transitioning to turn-based mode as soon as you spotted the enemy. I do not personally enjoy having to fumble around with the UI, to set up an ambush or stealth kill in real-time mode (yes, I am aware of the "takedown" button but it's still awkward). And this is the part that feels furthest removed from the traditional mechanics of the series.

In JA2, you could accomplish stealth kills efficiently, without having to grapple with the UI. Any action that requires you to press more buttons to achieve the same effect is a step back, in my opinion. The fact that you even need a "takedown" button to prepare a stealth kill iin JA3 is a tacit admission to the clunkiness of stealth attacks in real-time. In JA2, you did not have to concern yourself with this preparatory phase. You just moved behind the enemy in turn based mode and launched your attack.

2) Limited inventory management options: this was an issue in the first two games but JA2 seemed more liberal in its inventory allowance than this game. Often, it was weight rather than space that was a limiting factor in JA2. And, of course, the mods introduced items like bags and backpacks that improved carrying capacity. Vests also had slots for carrying items.

JA3 does away with carry weight in favor of limiting space.

3) Lack of flexibility with attachments: In vanilla JA2, you could freely detach scopes and laser sights from one gun and install them on another. You could also freely install and remove ceramic plates from vests. The only mods that you could not remove once you attached them were the Rod & Spring item and the extended barrel (although you could finesse the latter by firing full auto until the barrel fell out).

In this game, all mods are treated as integral to one firearm or piece of armor. There's no ability to exchange scopes or attachments that you would expect to be removable, or to remove plates from their carriers.

I assume that this was done in order to streamline inventory management but it removes an interesting strategic element from the previous game.

4) Lack of transportation options? I will admit that I am not extremely far into the game (just day 30). But you could acquire road vehicles in JA2 as well as a helicopter. I haven't seen any indication that you can do so here.

5) Inability to move militia: unlike JA2, you can't seem to move a squad of militia from one sector to an adjacent one. So if you lose units in one sector, you can't easily reinforce from another location. You have to retrain at the site of the loss.


TLDR: JA3 streamlines some mechanics to its detriment (e.g. mods/attachments) while unnecessarily complicating others (e.g. real-time stealth kills). Still, I like it a lot. I know that JA3 is its own game but let's be honest. If it claims to be part of a venerable series, it can't escape comparisons with its predecessor. That it can feel like "JA2 lite" yet be such an engrossing game is a testament to how great JA2 was.

[morchuflex]

Originally posted by Gacu666:

I had to force myself to go to bed and that rarely happens nowadays.

Same thing here. I hadn't experienced this level of addiction in years. The game has obvious flaws, yet they don't detract much from my enjoyment. When the good parts are so good, you forgive the bad parts.

[Furio]

It is really good. No doubt.

[infomailas]

Originally posted by Cuthbert:

As someone who played the first two games when they came out way back in the 90's I'm only sad that I had to wait this long for a 3rd. Im really enjoying it!

I agree 100% with you. I also remember playing the games in the 90s. I get the same feelings when I play JA3 as when played JA 2 for the first time. Just as someone else in the thread commented, I have to force myself to go to bed.

[pascal.difolco]

+1, this game is really fun and engaging, can't stop playing it !
Got BG3 at launch, played a bit but I don't like much Larian's take on DnD, this is a way better game!

[Nazkai]

It really is and I intend to support whatever DLC these devs come up with because we need to encourage and support the design of more games like this.

There are little quality of life improvements and AI improvements that would make it even better but if the devs open up the modding like they are planning that will get improved no doubt because some already are. I will even purchase DLCs of mercs that modders bring into the game because for the price to fun ratio and the lack of micro transaction BS this game was a steal honestly!

[arjuna one]

bad optimization (or no opt. at all)
bad ai (cant even make use of games own mechanics properly)
bad ui&ux (inventory & item management)
bad art design (cartoonish)
bad level design
bad weapon&explosive balance

stupid things like,
bullets doing less damage in burst,
not being able to mount your gun on your cover,
existence of "butchers" in a world of mgs & rpgs,
moronic and action gamelike "special moves" like run&gun, mobile shot in a game with action points mechanic (at least they could have made some good looking animations for these, just check the stupid run&gun animation)
overwatch mechanic being overpowered,
♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ of bugs

so yeah great game to waste your life trying to modfix it to your liking

[pascal.difolco]

Originally posted by arjuna one:

bad optimization (or no opt. at all)
bad ai (cant even make use of games own mechanics properly)
bad ui&ux (inventory & item management)
bad art design (cartoonish)
bad level design
bad weapon&explosive balance

stupid things like,
bullets doing less damage in burst,
not being able to mount your gun on your cover,
existence of "butchers" in a world of mgs & rpgs,
moronic and action gamelike "special moves" like run&gun, mobile shot in a game with action points mechanic (at least they could have made some good looking animations for these, just check the stupid run&gun animation)
overwatch mechanic being overpowered,
♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ of bugs

so yeah great game to waste your life trying to modfix it to your liking

bad post too, 90% of it is just factually wrong

[Dorok]

Originally posted by pascal.difolco:

+1, this game is really fun and engaging, can't stop playing it !
Got BG3 at launch, played a bit but I don't like much Larian's take on DnD, this is a way better game!

Played once during EA after they released Mac version, I doubt BG3 won't blow up JA3 for my own GOTY. But JA3 achieved keep me in, even after BG3 release, not on Mac but JA3 isn't on Mac either (using computer on cloud). That's an achievement for JA3.

[Econ]

Originally posted by pascal.difolco:

Got BG3 at launch, played a bit but I don't like much Larian's take on DnD, this is a way better game!

JA3 is a better squad tactics (ie strategy) game, imo, whereas BG3 seems a superb roleplaying game.

I've had a blast with JA3. I was a big JA2 fan back in the day and JA3 is very faithful to that game and arguably surpasses it. The cover system, in particular, is clearer and with that plus the CTH mod, I feel I know what I can do in terms of tactics. The dialogue, characters and music are also enhanced over its predecessors.

However, I was tiring of my third JA3 playthrough (on MI this time, but the game does feel that different on FB, commando or MI - I guess player learning offsets the rises in difficulty). On a whim tried BG3. It's fantastic at dialogue, characters and voice acting - it's like Bioware at its best - but the mechanics take some getting used to. I played BG1 and BG2 when they came out, but aren't up to date with 5e ("advantage" is a new one to me) and some of the Larian stuff like your casters needing to tell Anakin they have the high ground in order to have a more than 50% chance of their one spell hitting home just seems weird. The difficulty is no joke for someone like me - the big fights feel unfair (even on the middle difficulty), requiring reloads and internet research to get ideas how to cheese the encounter - which gets in the way of immersion (I'm actively avoiding boss fights for now, to level up more first).

TLDR: In terms of tactics and combat, JA3 leaves me feeling smart whereas BG3 leaves me feeling frustrated.

[Dorok]

Originally posted by Econ:

Originally posted by pascal.difolco:

Got BG3 at launch, played a bit but I don't like much Larian's take on DnD, this is a way better game!

JA3 is a better squad tactics (ie strategy) game, imo, whereas BG3 seems a superb roleplaying game.
...
TLDR: In terms of tactics and combat, JA3 leaves me feeling smart whereas BG3 leaves me feeling frustrated.

I doubt it, even if I haven't played yet BG3 past BG3 EA.

I can't deny JA3 combats are very fun, and there's many marking very fun special combats, but it hardly match BG3 for tactical value:
- For pure fun and very open aspect, JA3 combats rule, but in term of challenges, diversity, complexity, it's no match for BG3.
- JA3 clearly failed make a max difficulty really challenging for experienced players, I bet BG3 Tactician mode does it fine. And I suspect you underestimate it, and started with Tactician mode and got frustrated up to give up.

[Engioc]

Originally posted by Ninth Hour:

I like it, but not as much as JA2, which I still think is the best entry in the series. However, given that I have hundreds of hours in the first two games, I will admit to a familiarity bias.

That being said, JA3 is- in its attempt to be a faithful successor- a step in the right direction. In particular, I am glad for the following:

1) Return to a more granular form of turn-based combat. As much as I enjoy the latest iteration of XCom and the streamlined, two-action mechanic that it implemented (which reminded me of the free-action, half-action, and full-action rules of D&D 3.0 onward), the Action Point system provides more flexibility of action economy (e.g. you don't lose an action just by stepping one space away and can continue moving as long as you have AP, should you change your mind about your position). And it has nostalgic value for old-school gamers like myself.

2) Continuation of the IMP system. Being able to create a custom merc was a great addition in JA2 and is welcome in JA3. Shame about the iimited portrait and character model options though.

3) Quirky mercs. Many of the AIM stalwarts are back. There are a number of missing faces though. I wish you could hire from MERC as well, as in JA2. Still, it's great that your team has personality. It's what made the first two games memorable.

Unfortunately, there are a few features that I am less enthusiastic about:

1) Real-time movement continuing until the enemy spots you. Much has already been posted about this. I thought JA2 had a simple and elegant way of transitioning to turn-based mode as soon as you spotted the enemy. I do not personally enjoy having to fumble around with the UI, to set up an ambush or stealth kill in real-time mode (yes, I am aware of the "takedown" button but it's still awkward). And this is the part that feels furthest removed from the traditional mechanics of the series.

In JA2, you could accomplish stealth kills efficiently, without having to grapple with the UI. Any action that requires you to press more buttons to achieve the same effect is a step back, in my opinion. The fact that you even need a "takedown" button to prepare a stealth kill iin JA3 is a tacit admission to the clunkiness of stealth attacks in real-time. In JA2, you did not have to concern yourself with this preparatory phase. You just moved behind the enemy in turn based mode and launched your attack.

2) Limited inventory management options: this was an issue in the first two games but JA2 seemed more liberal in its inventory allowance than this game. Often, it was weight rather than space that was a limiting factor in JA2. And, of course, the mods introduced items like bags and backpacks that improved carrying capacity. Vests also had slots for carrying items.

JA3 does away with carry weight in favor of limiting space.

3) Lack of flexibility with attachments: In vanilla JA2, you could freely detach scopes and laser sights from one gun and install them on another. You could also freely install and remove ceramic plates from vests. The only mods that you could not remove once you attached them were the Rod & Spring item and the extended barrel (although you could finesse the latter by firing full auto until the barrel fell out).

In this game, all mods are treated as integral to one firearm or piece of armor. There's no ability to exchange scopes or attachments that you would expect to be removable, or to remove plates from their carriers.

I assume that this was done in order to streamline inventory management but it removes an interesting strategic element from the previous game.

4) Lack of transportation options? I will admit that I am not extremely far into the game (just day 30). But you could acquire road vehicles in JA2 as well as a helicopter. I haven't seen any indication that you can do so here.

5) Inability to move militia: unlike JA2, you can't seem to move a squad of militia from one sector to an adjacent one. So if you lose units in one sector, you can't easily reinforce from another location. You have to retrain at the site of the loss.


TLDR: JA3 streamlines some mechanics to its detriment (e.g. mods/attachments) while unnecessarily complicating others (e.g. real-time stealth kills). Still, I like it a lot. I know that JA3 is its own game but let's be honest. If it claims to be part of a venerable series, it can't escape comparisons with its predecessor. That it can feel like "JA2 lite" yet be such an engrossing game is a testament to how great JA2 was.

I never played JA1 or 2, but I still +1 to all of that as I feel those are good points that would help improve JA3.

I'm quite happy with JA3, it's enjoyable to play, but as with any game, there is room for improvement.

[Dorok]

What's no saying Ninth Hour is JA2 switch to TB mode once an enemy is seen. The problem is TB isn't well suited with pure stealth, real time is much more suited.

Ok, JA3 didn't exploit it fully, quoted for now only the prison case, even if I failed quote a patrol it was clearly possible to stealth free the prisonner at least to reach him, not sure after.

Still for future and mods JA3 design is a much better stealth base design with real time.

Second major aspect not saying by Ninth Hour is when enemy surprise you or detect you, then enter a mechanic that is reflex speed on interuption.

Interuption is a whole mechanic in JA1&2 not in JA3. During a turn of a unit an enemy unit can interupt and fully play its AP left, and if it's player unit it's player that is playing. The problem is it generates many intereuption and slow down a lot a turn play, not sure how it would be accepted in modern context.

And the speed of interuption is another mechanic not used by JA3, and a fast enough enemy could detect you and already play its full AP including throw some grenades or make a head shot. So it's hardly more cool for player.

It's mre that JA1&2 players was abusing the system by bringing a fast higher level merc ensuring he has a fatser interupt than all current enemies, and manage problem cases. But that's not mechanic working properly and have enemies in open air when you play your full turn is not an acceptable design. Dev provided Fox merc to nerf it for enemies and simplify it for player.

Otheriwise move militia, use some vehicles I don't know. It depends of the consequences.

Perhaps but it's minor for militia, it could need a major change like allow more militia in a sector but then balance it.

For vehicles perhaps, if it's for inventory management, it won't change much with multi teams. If it's for travel speed, use a merc Leadership 90+ and no vehicle can be faster so it's Leadership mercs that are the vehicles in JA3.

EDIT:
I would suggest add a new free merc, total crap with anything including wiz, but 100 STR and 100 leadership and a special trait adding one or two rows of equipement. Even if he won't replace a magical global stash shared by multi teams, it should be a useful maintenance tools when mixed with abilities to check sector inventories in global map.

[pascal.difolco]

Originally posted by Econ:

Originally posted by pascal.difolco:

Got BG3 at launch, played a bit but I don't like much Larian's take on DnD, this is a way better game!

JA3 is a better squad tactics (ie strategy) game, imo, whereas BG3 seems a superb roleplaying game.

I've had a blast with JA3. I was a big JA2 fan back in the day and JA3 is very faithful to that game and arguably surpasses it. The cover system, in particular, is clearer and with that plus the CTH mod, I feel I know what I can do in terms of tactics. The dialogue, characters and music are also enhanced over its predecessors.

However, I was tiring of my third JA3 playthrough (on MI this time, but the game does feel that different on FB, commando or MI - I guess player learning offsets the rises in difficulty). On a whim tried BG3. It's fantastic at dialogue, characters and voice acting - it's like Bioware at its best - but the mechanics take some getting used to. I played BG1 and BG2 when they came out, but aren't up to date with 5e ("advantage" is a new one to me) and some of the Larian stuff like your casters needing to tell Anakin they have the high ground in order to have a more than 50% chance of their one spell hitting home just seems weird. The difficulty is no joke for someone like me - the big fights feel unfair (even on the middle difficulty), requiring reloads and internet research to get ideas how to cheese the encounter - which gets in the way of immersion (I'm actively avoiding boss fights for now, to level up more first).

TLDR: In terms of tactics and combat, JA3 leaves me feeling smart whereas BG3 leaves me feeling frustrated.

Yeah indeed, same for me, avoiding bosses, hurling magical burning vases from heights and savescumming to cheese fights is not how I enjoy RPGs (but no problem doing it in say TWW3 for example ^^)

[Dorok]

Originally posted by pascal.difolco:

Yeah indeed, same for me, avoiding bosses, hurling magical burning vases from heights and savescumming to cheese fights is not how I enjoy RPGs (but no problem doing it in say TWW3 for example ^^)

Well Econ topic was tactical value of combats if I'm not wrong.

But yeah JA3 combats have a RPG spirit by being very open and letting a lot of freedom of choices to play for managing combats problems.

BG3 combats even not tactician difficulty aim be more challenging, it's still open to many tools because it's D&D and ton of classes and abilities, plus there's often some unconventional tools available, but the challenge design target let less freedom than in JA3 combats.

Frankly complain on combats too challenging/difficult and refuse lower difficulty, it's non sense for me.