Balance if fine everything is OP...

[mr_oluap]

Hi folks,

Yes snipers are OP but ALSO :

- Melee is OP with grit, free movement, great damage for low AP cost, free interruption (IMP perk) ;

- Shoguns are OP : Great damage at super low AP cost for range + free AOE + free move EVERY SHOT with one perk + expose targets in covers + Bleeding (lol ain't that too much seriously ?).

Late game you can use breacher ammo against armor but that's not even necessary most of the time...

- Pistols are OP : Anaconda 3 AP ranged shot is just great. You can wield one long range gun in one hand and one short range in the other, then you fire one or the other at will.

You can load one with +50% crit chance ammo and the other with AP ammo for even more versatility. Even late game most ennemies are not fully armored so the +50% crit is super good in many situations.

You don't HAVE to dual fire even if you are dual wielding.

Dual firing strenght is that it makes aiming worth it with pistols (it's not worth to aim 3 ap shots in most situations).

I did not use "trick shot" much but i guess it could also have some use with 3 or 4 AP pistols ;

- AR can do everything you need in the game just fine at every range and have insane mods available, only downside is that you have to mod them before they get good (i mean more than other weapons) ;

- SMG are... ok decently good i'd say, i don't like run n gun missing too much, which is why i usually prefer ARs which have significantly higher damage, but it's still a decent ability, useful to wipe low HP ennemies or if you need to move anyway, or just to use abundant 9mm ammo. Uzi is a good early game weapon.

Also you can have fun with crit builds so why not.

- even throwing knives are good lol

- LMG are obviously crazy good ;

- explosives are insane but fortunately a bit limited in ammo.

And by the way :

- the "trick" of using short range characters is to get them close enough from the start of the battle. Sure if you start every encounter from sniper range, snipers are gonna do all the work ;
- you can use different weapon types on the same character, it costs only 1 AP to change, and you can simply adapt to every situation ;
- for low AP cost weapons the best mods are the +1 free aim every attack and anything that enhance this aiming bonus : with good characters you'll hit most shots without needing to spend any AP for aiming (the less you aim the more attacks per turn).
- Some ennemies are bullet sponges, some are super fragile (snipers, rocket men) : low AP cost weapons can often 1 shot kill low hp ennemies. If they're not dead in one shot it's the occasion to mop them with run 'n gun .
- I much prefer super high mobility builds with light armor and frogleap in general, but one guy in heavy armor with health perks can be very useful too.

NB : i don't mind if the devs nerf snipers or buff SMG for example, just saying it's FAR from being as bad as some people are writing here.

[Put Greta Thunberg in JAIL!]

because people are clueless, nothing new, anyone that has really played the game knows almost all weapons are very strong

[FatalException]

Melee is good with the right perks and good positioning.
Shotguns are devastating with the right perks and good positioning.
Some Pistols are good with the right perks and good positioning.
A few SMGs aren't that bad, if you specially build for them.
Some ARs are good with the right perks and dedicated mods.
LMGs are very good, if you can feed them the necessary ammo.
Explosives are very good, if you have high explosives Skill.

As for Rifles: A silenced K98, something you will have after the Rust at the latest, will carry you through the most of the game no problem and is arguably the "worst" Rifle available.
Rifles profit from perks and mods, but they don't need them at all to be very good. They also work equally well in any range that is below their maximum, since there are no close range penalties that would open up an incentive to carry a shorter range sidearm.

Is the reason why we critizise balance really so hard to spot?
Do people really believe that comparing fully modded high tier ARs like the FAL or Galil to the easiest to get Rifle in the game that takes 20 scrap to be silenced is a convincing argument?

Burstfire providing an overage of 120% base damage compared to a single shot from the same weapon for 3 times the ammo is just laughably bad.

[Rhapsody]

Originally posted by FatalException:

Burstfire providing an overage of 120% base damage compared to a single shot from the same weapon for 3 times the ammo is just laughably bad.

It's only bad if you can't manage your ammo. And higher amount of bullets also results in higher crit chance per turn, which is relevant for crit builds.

There's nothing wrong with rifles being powerful. It's how humans started shooting things, for most part. But you don't bring a scoped rifle in room-to-room fight and enemies seem to know, at least in some places, that they don't need to come out and expose themselves.

[mr_oluap]

Originally posted by FatalException:

Melee is good with the right perks and good positioning.
Shotguns are devastating with the right perks and good positioning.
Some Pistols are good with the right perks and good positioning.
A few SMGs aren't that bad, if you specially build for them.
Some ARs are good with the right perks and dedicated mods.
LMGs are very good, if you can feed them the necessary ammo.
Explosives are very good, if you have high explosives Skill.

As for Rifles: A silenced K98, something you will have after the Rust at the latest, will carry you through the most of the game no problem and is arguably the "worst" Rifle available.
Rifles profit from perks and mods, but they don't need them at all to be very good. They also work equally well in any range that is below their maximum, since there are no close range penalties that would open up an incentive to carry a shorter range sidearm.

Is the reason why we critizise balance really so hard to spot?
Do people really believe that comparing fully modded high tier ARs like the FAL or Galil to the easiest to get Rifle in the game that takes 20 scrap to be silenced is a convincing argument?

Burstfire providing an overage of 120% base damage compared to a single shot from the same weapon for 3 times the ammo is just laughably bad.

Well if your only complaint is about early game K98 ok... i don't think it's a big deal, but yeah maybe they shouldn't give you a ton of those in the first maps, just one would be enough

[MaRo]

Originally posted by FatalException:

Melee is good with the right perks and good positioning.
Shotguns are devastating with the right perks and good positioning.
Some Pistols are good with the right perks and good positioning.
A few SMGs aren't that bad, if you specially build for them.
Some ARs are good with the right perks and dedicated mods.
LMGs are very good, if you can feed them the necessary ammo.
Explosives are very good, if you have high explosives Skill.

As for Rifles: A silenced K98, something you will have after the Rust at the latest, will carry you through the most of the game no problem and is arguably the "worst" Rifle available.
Rifles profit from perks and mods, but they don't need them at all to be very good. They also work equally well in any range that is below their maximum, since there are no close range penalties that would open up an incentive to carry a shorter range sidearm.

Is the reason why we critizise balance really so hard to spot?
Do people really believe that comparing fully modded high tier ARs like the FAL or Galil to the easiest to get Rifle in the game that takes 20 scrap to be silenced is a convincing argument?

Burstfire providing an overage of 120% base damage compared to a single shot from the same weapon for 3 times the ammo is just laughably bad.

The best mod for AR's with a char build for burst is the Recoil Booster for 15 scrap you get 80% dmg boost over this rifle(with FAL) for 1 less AP and more ammo consumption ;)
On the other hand Dragunov with burst mode is just too OP.

However i do agree that the minimum range on snipers in JA2 was much better and it's something to be added for both gameplay and realism fun in JA3.

[FatalException]

Originally posted by Rhapsody:

Originally posted by FatalException:

Burstfire providing an overage of 120% base damage compared to a single shot from the same weapon for 3 times the ammo is just laughably bad.

It's only bad if you can't manage your ammo. And higher amount of bullets also results in higher crit chance per turn, which is relevant for crit builds.

There's nothing wrong with rifles being powerful. It's how humans started shooting things, for most part. But you don't bring a scoped rifle in room-to-room fight and enemies seem to know, at least in some places, that they don't need to come out and expose themselves.

The only enemies I ever encountered "not coming out" where stuck somewhere in the map as a last straggler. And in this game there is 0 incentive not to take a scoped rifle into the kind of fight you described. 6 guaranteed kills per turn are plenty enough for anything the game throws at you and while you don't need to, nothing stops you from adding grenades or an LMG for ♥♥♥♥♥ and giggles.
Truth be told, most of the time even 4 snipers with K98s are enough an you can have 2 guys with ARs setting protective overwatches around your sniper perch for RP-reasons.

If you feel you need a burst capable weapon, the Dragunov is your rifle. You can also get it guaranteed with the best scope available and the most expensive thing about getting multiples would be to wait out the days between refreshes.

You know what increases critchance? Headshots. Guaranteed headshots all day, everyday. And with rifle base damage almost no enemy in the game will survive a crit to the head. And crafting 30 AP rounds is enough for 30 armored enemies, instead of 10 in the best case.
Not to speak of your core conceit "crit builds". I already pointed out, the ARs can be good with dedicated builds earlier, didn't I?

[Bloodwest]

Everything's good, it's just something is better. I'm totally against any sort of nerfs in PvE games though.

[FatalException]

Originally posted by mr_oluap:

Well if your only complaint is about early game K98 ok... i don't think it's a big deal, but yeah maybe they shouldn't give you a ton of those in the first maps, just one would be enough

My core complaint is, that even the "worst" rifle with 20 scrap worth of modding and no perks is serious competition to the best fully modded ARs in the game. And that isn't because the rifles are insanely good, it's because burst fire is so laughably bad.

[mr_oluap]

Originally posted by Bloodwest:

Everything's good, it's just something is better. I'm totally against any sort of nerfs in PvE games though.

Why against nerf ? Sometimes it can make the game more fun.

[mr_oluap]

Originally posted by FatalException:

Originally posted by mr_oluap:

Well if your only complaint is about early game K98 ok... i don't think it's a big deal, but yeah maybe they shouldn't give you a ton of those in the first maps, just one would be enough

My core complaint is, that even the "worst" rifle with 20 scrap worth of modding and no perks is serious competition to the best fully modded ARs in the game. And that isn't because the rifles are insanely good, it's because burst fire is so laughably bad.

okok well i agree that burst is more a "mid game" thing and that it's not good early, but i don't think it's that bad, i use it a lot

[MaRo]

Originally posted by mr_oluap:

okok well i agree that burst is more a "mid game" thing and that it's not good early, but i don't think it's that bad, i use it a lot

The problem with burst fire is, that you need the perk for it to be effective at longer ranges, and more so - the fact that the perk isn't an option from leveling.

On the other hand if you have full squad with this perk and 80+marks you can constantly kill ~10 enemies per turn easily.

So to be fair it's quite well balanced and also realistic - in RL you shoot single shots - to preserve ammo and for weapon control. Even in CQB bursts are rarely used.

Maybe in JA3 the lethality from most weapons is too high. I remember in JA2 1.13(yes, mod :)) i had those long fights with both my mercs and enemy in good cover and neither was able to inflict significant damage if any at all - you had to use flank tactics or some sort of HE to break through.

[cheekibreeki]

if everything's OP, nothing is OP :^)

[Alkpaz]

Originally posted by mr_oluap:

Originally posted by Bloodwest:

Everything's good, it's just something is better. I'm totally against any sort of nerfs in PvE games though.

Why against nerf ? Sometimes it can make the game more fun.

Yeah, say that about the July 19th patch for Diablo 4 that gave D4 a metacritic customer score of 2.0 at one point. I was one of those that bailed, thankfully this is the game I chose post D4. :P

Edit: Oh look it is at 2.2! Winning! https://www.metacritic.com/game/pc/diablo-iv/user-reviews

[Cpt.Charname]

Originally posted by MaRo:

The best mod for AR's with a char build for burst is the Recoil Booster for 15 scrap you get 80% dmg boost over this rifle(with FAL) for 1 less AP and more ammo consumption ;)
On the other hand Dragunov with burst mode is just too OP.

But FAL is only overpowered AR due to damge/ap (7.5 burst and 10 with Recoil Booster) and long range(36).
other AR either don't have enough dam (all 556/ak-47) or shot range without aim bones (ak-74 with 24 range and 2 aim bones)
only ar-15/Galil are better with high level perk and JHP.

but if u added up with perk and other stuff even mp5 with horrible damage can do great with stealth expert to instant kill most of enemy.
for reference dam/ap without aim SVD 5.14 , mp5/famas single 3.75 brust 4.8, FAL single 6 brust 7.5/10 , m24 6.57, and AA12 with god like damage 13dam/ap

this is no aim so thing is worst for early game which u usually need aim 3 times make those weak weapon weaker due to AP cost.

i'd say add smg/handgun to breach&clear perk , some damage to 556 AR. and long barrel for AKs .

[Bloodwest]

Originally posted by Alkpaz:

Originally posted by mr_oluap:

Why against nerf ? Sometimes it can make the game more fun.

Yeah, say that about the July 19th patch for Diablo 4 that gave D4 a metacritic customer score of 2.0 at one point. I was one of those that bailed, thankfully this is the game I chose post D4. :P

Edit: Oh look it is at 2.2! Winning! https://www.metacritic.com/game/pc/diablo-iv/user-reviews

D4's case is a great example to why nerf mentality sux. Devs balance things in PvP because opposite party playing "non-meta" stuff might not have fun playing at clear disadvantage just because they don't want to play with OP stuff. In PvE, AI never complains no matter how unfair player is but it's surely irritating for many players when their favorite thing becomes weaker. There is no reason to touch the balance in PvE games unless there are extreme cases such as something being totally useless/unplayable. OP provided good points on why pretty much everything is fine and I think devs should just leave weapon balancing be.