Melee Initiate and/or Witch

[The1Kobra]

So, I've been looking at character builds again. One character idea that came to mind was a melee worthy Initiate or Witch character.
(You could do this with Pilgrim I suppose, but they just seem weaker than initiate, they only get 2 spellbook selections. Initiates and witches get 3.)

Of course, it IS a challenge to juggle the stats if you want to be strong in melee and have decent enough casting to provide healing, buffing, and support.
You need Strength for Hitting power and armor, dexterity for dodge and action points. Awareness needs to be at 4 or you take AP penalties. The casting stats shouldn't be neglected. It's a lot to stretch out.

For an initiate, you need a Self Control of 5 and a Personality of 4. Here's what I thought for a Vrannari's stat lineup:
6(7)/6/3(4)/4/4/5(4)/6(5)

The Initiate healing spell isn't very tied to intellect for it's effectiveness, not nearly as much as the animism heal spell. So it's OK to have a Intellect of 4. Maybe?

Now for a witch, you do need an endurance of 5, and similarly a self Control of 5. We can dip personality to 3, since it doesn't hurt willpower if it drops below 4, even if it's nice to have above 4. The new stat lineup for a Vrannari melee witch:
6(7)/6/4(5)/4/3/5(4)/6(5)

Of course, the issue with this build would be breath of life would last only 3 rounds here, for 6 healing. If you had an INT of 6, it would give 10 healing. A ranged sidearm using Goblin witch can hit the 6 INT easily. The stats are easier for a ranged sidearm using casting since they can completely dump stat strength and use a shortbow.

Has anyone tried making a melee initiate or witch? How well has it worked compared to a dedicated melee/caster character? Tried it once and it didn't work out for me, but maybe I'm doing something wrong?

[Tenath]

Tried both, actually had both on the same team at once.

Had Human Initiate 6/6/5/3/4/5/5 as a primary tank, and unsurprisingly she struggled a bit with that duty, but kinda sorta worked. With just 5 or less Int known spell count becomes a concern, but 5 is enough for the most important rank 1 stuff:

• Nivaria's Hand (heal)
  
• Purification (cure status)
  
• Precognition (+15% Dodge self-buff, very important for tanking)
  
• Nivaria's Barrier (+1 Armor, +20 Spirit resist buff)
  
• Swift Justice (+20% accuracy and damage vs undead self buff, effectively boosts 3 strikes with 8 AP).

For heals, Initiate's Hand of Mercy helps a good deal, otherwise 2d6 for Nivaria's Hand is a bit too random without any boosts from SP.

Used Varannari Martial Witch on multiple runs now, with 7/4/6/4/3/5/5 for starting stats, also usually placed Ancestral Blessing of Might on her (for +1 STR). This low dex means she can't dodge at all, and thus you want to put the heaviest armor possible on her. Totemic Might is probably the main factor that makes this build viable (+10% 2h Accuracy, uses STR instead of PER for Enchantment), with the other being the Escape spell (which provides her with stellar mobilty). Overall she works quite well in the melee DPS role, while at the same time being a full-fledged spellcaster (albeit with low-ish WP pool and limited spell selection). Really looking forward to Arcane Blood (level 5 expert talent, so currently unavailable), which should boost her spellpower to a good level.

Low-ish willpower means both don't last long between rests on spellcaster duty, so you really don't want them to be slinging spells left and right.

For my current run, using a ranged Human Pilgrim on the team (3/6/3/5/5/7/4), and with Tactical Mind she reaches 10 AP, which means two shots or casts per turn, which is quite good. Accuracy is semi-decent, enough to hit weaker and less nimble targets. Really liking this character so far.

[Dragonboy]

I have tried both a melee witch and a melee initiate, and I can say with certainty that melee witch is a far better choice than melee initiate.

For melee initiate, you are struggling too much with balancing your stats, because either you can barely cast any healing because you have low mana and spell power, or your melee stats are far below average and you barely hit anything.
I really tried making this build work, because a front row paladin type sounds fun, but I just couldn't get it to work.

On the other hand, witch fits perfectly in the melee role.
She has a great cheap mobility options with Escape, which allows her to sacrifice some movement so you can put more in STR and END.
With Totemic might, she doesn't have to worry about investing in PER either because she just gains a bonus from STR instead.
Nor do you have to worry about having a massively high WP pool, because you can refresh it once with the Sacrifice skill, and if your witch has high enough END this is an easy refresh.

And on top of that, once level 5 gets added to the game, she'll get another bonus to SP based on END, so that is another bonus for building a melee witch.

In fact, I would even argue that trying to build a witch like a normal caster is the bad option because witch has so many skills supporting a front row spot.

[Tenath]

Originally posted by Dragonboy:

In fact, I would even argue that trying to build a witch like a normal caster is the bad option because witch has so many skills supporting a front row spot.

I'd say Caster Witch is a bit better at offensive casting (courtesy of higher casting stats, obviously), so it's the way to go if you want to focus on Malediction. Martial Witch can simply achieve more by focusing on melee and buffs. However, it's harder to do a pure caster Witch, since non-humans either take a hit to casting stats, or, in the case of Batrax, take a hefty hit to their END, which is a strict requirement for this career.

I had fun playing both, but feel like the Martial one had more of an impact for the party.

[The1Kobra]

The stats on a goblin witch is a bit easier to manage. They make for a good shooter on the side.
2/6/5/7/3/6/5
It means strong shooting ability with a shortbow and strong witch casting. The low personality means the enchantment stat is a little on the low side but it should still be plenty workable, especially with the 6 INT.
Could work some of the DEX and AWA into PER, but having the bow as a side-arm is useful too.

[Tenath]

Yeah, my caster witch was a goblin. If you want to focus on Malediction, then it has plenty of spells affected by Enchantment, so dumping PER isn't ideal for that use case.

For those hybrid casters, it ultimately boils down to focusing on melee/ranged and using spellcasting for utility, or using spellcasting as primary means of offense (whether it's damage or CC), in which case you want to focus on the caster stats and getting deep WP pool (and remember that both PER and SLF boost your WP, with the latter being much more important). In this case, with 5 AP casting costs for most offensive spells, you won't have much time to do shooting, at least not until you run out of WP (or have 10 AP, like I did with my Pilgrim build, but that pretty much guarantees low WP pool).

[Senenleigh]

I tried an initiate 3 with 1 Human Squire for the +2 Armor training boost, requires a personality of 5. Kind of a melee healer/tank cleric type. Right now channel is really strong, especially if you have two characters with channel. Will likely see channel nerfed in the future. Not sure how the build will play out when we have advanced classes. Hopefully hybrid type characters can just chug potions for WP as meditation not working as well it once did for them. Probably go 6 STR, 4 DEX, 6 END, 3 AWA, 5 PER, 4 INT, 6 SLF. I'm Liking just 7 AP for now, do not need alot of AP for this build, as spells and attacks are 4-5 AP. Swift Justice only costs 2 AP. Tried on Cruel really liking the build right now, can achieve very high spirit resistance for those undead fights. Can also burst down that red axe bandit very easily with channel. Very dependent on strong armor and shield for defense.