The games that ask you to create party at the start never reach sizable audience.

[ggttcc2]

Unless they are meant to be played co-op or used like a DM tool.
And it contradicts the whole first person perspective.
It is simply immersion breaking.

It's still not too late to change.
People would probably flame me, but I have to make my point.

[Ridenberg]

Pathfinder? Baldur's Gate? Pillars of Eternity?

[Lungbutter]

Originally posted by ggttcc2:

Unless they are meant to be played co-op or used like a DM tool.
And it contradicts the whole first person perspective.
It is simply immersion breaking.

It's still not too late to change.
People would probably flame me, but I have to make my point.

If you *have* to make your point, you need to put some effort into making it. You left so much to interpretation and blind faith. You don't provide anything to back it up. You haven't made any point.

You just gave us your opinion. We don't even know who you are.

First, how much is "sizable" and how did you arrive at that number as the goal?

Second, provide some examples of the best selling games featuring a party created at the start and explain to us their failure in real numbers.

For the examples, you also have to demonstrate that it was the "party created at the start" that caused the game to fail, and not any other factors. Games fail for lots of reasons, you gotta make some attempt to prove that your claim has any merit.

If you have to make your point, this would be a good start. Otherwise we have no idea what the hell you're talking about.

[Berserkr]

I'll support a game that allows me to create my own party vs making one character and the rest are premade tag alongs

[ggttcc2]

Originally posted by Treemosher:

Originally posted by ggttcc2:

Unless they are meant to be played co-op or used like a DM tool.
And it contradicts the whole first person perspective.
It is simply immersion breaking.

It's still not too late to change.
People would probably flame me, but I have to make my point.

If you *have* to make your point, you need to put some effort into making it. You left so much to interpretation and blind faith. You don't provide anything to back it up. You haven't made any point.

You just gave us your opinion. We don't even know who you are.

First, how much is "sizable" and how did you arrive at that number as the goal?

Second, provide some examples of the best selling games featuring a party created at the start and explain to us their failure in real numbers.

For the examples, you also have to demonstrate that it was the "party created at the start" that caused the game to fail, and not any other factors. Games fail for lots of reasons, you gotta make some attempt to prove that your claim has any merit.

If you have to make your point, this would be a good start. Otherwise we have no idea what the hell you're talking about.

I will not put that much effort. I "have to" only for the sake of myself rather than determinedly trying to convince someone.
Also if the dev read this they will know what I am talking about without showing the numbers to them.
They clearly understand this is a risky decision but go for it anyways.
My post is just a reminder. That some decision will punish, people will care, and it will show.

[Lungbutter]

Originally posted by ggttcc2:

Originally posted by Treemosher:

If you *have* to make your point, you need to put some effort into making it. You left so much to interpretation and blind faith. You don't provide anything to back it up. You haven't made any point.

You just gave us your opinion. We don't even know who you are.

First, how much is "sizable" and how did you arrive at that number as the goal?

Second, provide some examples of the best selling games featuring a party created at the start and explain to us their failure in real numbers.

For the examples, you also have to demonstrate that it was the "party created at the start" that caused the game to fail, and not any other factors. Games fail for lots of reasons, you gotta make some attempt to prove that your claim has any merit.

If you have to make your point, this would be a good start. Otherwise we have no idea what the hell you're talking about.

I will not put that much effort. I "have to" only for the sake of myself rather than determinedly trying to convince someone.
Also if the dev read this they will know what I am talking about without showing the numbers to them.
They clearly understand this is a risky decision but go for it anyways.
My post is just a reminder. That some decision will punish, people will care, and it will show.

What effort? If you have any basis for your claim, the effort would already have been done to some extent. You're full of crap.

Just say "I don't like <x> type of game". It's fine dude. Don't try to pass off your personal preference as some type of industry fact. Silly

[ggttcc2]

Originally posted by Treemosher:

Originally posted by ggttcc2:

I will not put that much effort. I "have to" only for the sake of myself rather than determinedly trying to convince someone.
Also if the dev read this they will know what I am talking about without showing the numbers to them.
They clearly understand this is a risky decision but go for it anyways.
My post is just a reminder. That some decision will punish, people will care, and it will show.

What effort? If you have any basis for your claim, the effort would already have been done to some extent. You're full of crap.

Just say "I don't like <x> type of game". It's fine dude. Don't try to pass off your personal preference as some type of industry fact. Silly

Good.

Dismissed.

[Lungbutter]

Originally posted by ggttcc2:

Originally posted by Treemosher:

What effort? If you have any basis for your claim, the effort would already have been done to some extent. You're full of crap.

Just say "I don't like <x> type of game". It's fine dude. Don't try to pass off your personal preference as some type of industry fact. Silly

Good.

Dismissed.

Dismissed? The hell you on about now? Very strange fellow. Ok, you're also dismissed. Carry on and no fake points next time.

[DavidBVal]

I would be perfectly content with bringing back the thrill and fun to some of those who loved Gold Box, Might & Magic, or Wizardry games. I don't care about "large audiences", to be honest.

In any case, the game allows you to generate a random (yet balanced) party in one click, which you can then edit.

[ggttcc2]

Originally posted by DavidBVal:

I would be perfectly content with bringing back the thrill and fun to some of those who loved Gold Box, Might & Magic, or Wizardry games. I don't care about "large audiences", to be honest.

In any case, the game allows you to generate a random (yet balanced) party in one click, which you can then edit.

Those games now have their own genre called "dungeon-crawler", they are more rogue-liteish than rpg in today's world.

There was a time when people tend to make games that starts with a party, when crpg was still a new thing and people cared more about working combat mechanics than narrative or immersion.

But that was ancient history now, several game changers happened and new formulas were quickly adopted.

The thing bothers me the most is not "creating a party" at the start. It would be totally fine if the game is going to be like Wartales or Wizardry.
It is how this contradicts the first person narrative and the deep role playing world we are going to venture into.
Being a party of random combatant with stats is very different to a being a single leader that is your avatar plus a few companions each with their own backstories and personalities and interactions (with the world).

If you are determined to go down this path, I would like to suggest at least allow us to define a main character that represents the player. The other 3 at the start will be just expandable underlings that you don't really have emotional connections. They may die freely and can be replaced by new recruits.
So the new party composition will be: One important protagonist, 2 important companions and 3 mercs that you don't really care.

Loved your previous game, wish you the best of luck.

[poip35]

SO... your saying Baldur's Gate, POE, etc were not successful? I would say you are mistaken, if you haven't played Exiled Kingdoms by Dave and crew I recommend you try it, see their passion, then try early access and come back to see how well your opinion has aged. I'm confident it will be a phenomenal game.

[DavidBVal]

Originally posted by ggttcc2:

Those games now have their own genre called "dungeon-crawler", they are more rogue-liteish than rpg in today's world.

There was a time when people tend to make games that starts with a party, when crpg was still a new thing and people cared more about working combat mechanics than narrative or immersion.

But that was ancient history now, several game changers happened and new formulas were quickly adopted.

An interesting debate, I wish I had time for a more elaborate answer but I'll have to offer a brief one.

I disagree with your analysis of RPGs going from mechanics to narrative being an "evolution". For me it's actually a decline, caused by how cheap and easy it is to entice players through romance and other tricks, rather than developing complex and fascinating RPG mechanics, that can bring interesting and creative character (and party) building.

Narrative is of course one of the main pillars of roleplaying, but that's it, ONE of them, not a more important one than mechanics, or exploration, at least to me. I suppose each player seeks different things in games and that's perfectly valid. But there's already enough games out there that, like you mention, use "well established formulas" to attract a "wide audience". Those are things that don't interest me. Of course I want Archaelund to be successful, but not at the cost of not being a game like others. Very much like Exiled Kingdoms is like no other RPG made for mobile, and while it didn't made me rich, it was succesful enough to allow me to make another game. That's my goal, actually; if I wanted money, I would have made EK2 and filled it with in-app purchases

[ggttcc2]

Originally posted by DavidBVal:

Originally posted by ggttcc2:

Those games now have their own genre called "dungeon-crawler", they are more rogue-liteish than rpg in today's world.

There was a time when people tend to make games that starts with a party, when crpg was still a new thing and people cared more about working combat mechanics than narrative or immersion.

But that was ancient history now, several game changers happened and new formulas were quickly adopted.

An interesting debate, I wish I had time for a more elaborate answer but I'll have to offer a brief one.

I disagree with your analysis of RPGs going from mechanics to narrative being an "evolution". For me it's actually a decline, caused by how cheap and easy it is to entice players through romance and other tricks, rather than developing complex and fascinating RPG mechanics, that can bring interesting and creative character (and party) building.

Narrative is of course one of the main pillars of roleplaying, but that's it, ONE of them, not a more important one than mechanics, or exploration, at least to me. I suppose each player seeks different things in games and that's perfectly valid. But there's already enough games out there that, like you mention, use "well established formulas" to attract a "wide audience". Those are things that don't interest me. Of course I want Archaelund to be successful, but not at the cost of not being a game like others. Very much like Exiled Kingdoms is like no other RPG made for mobile, and while it didn't made me rich, it was succesful enough to allow me to make another game. That's my goal, actually; if I wanted money, I would have made EK2 and filled it with in-app purchases :ek_mage:

I see. It's your game after all and you should be free from any obligations.

What I suggested in the later part of the post could reasonably work, it might look like a compromise, but a compromise that wouldn't change the core mechanics while being greatly more appealing to some other people.

But that't just my suggestion and vision, which comes cheap.
Anyways, good luck!

[Lungbutter]

Originally posted by ggttcc2:

Originally posted by DavidBVal:

An interesting debate, I wish I had time for a more elaborate answer but I'll have to offer a brief one.

I disagree with your analysis of RPGs going from mechanics to narrative being an "evolution". For me it's actually a decline, caused by how cheap and easy it is to entice players through romance and other tricks, rather than developing complex and fascinating RPG mechanics, that can bring interesting and creative character (and party) building.

Narrative is of course one of the main pillars of roleplaying, but that's it, ONE of them, not a more important one than mechanics, or exploration, at least to me. I suppose each player seeks different things in games and that's perfectly valid. But there's already enough games out there that, like you mention, use "well established formulas" to attract a "wide audience". Those are things that don't interest me. Of course I want Archaelund to be successful, but not at the cost of not being a game like others. Very much like Exiled Kingdoms is like no other RPG made for mobile, and while it didn't made me rich, it was succesful enough to allow me to make another game. That's my goal, actually; if I wanted money, I would have made EK2 and filled it with in-app purchases

I see. It's your game after all and you should be free from any obligations.

What I suggested in the later part of the post could reasonably work, it might look like a compromise, but a compromise that wouldn't change the core mechanics while being greatly more appealing to some other people.

But that't just my suggestion and vision, which comes cheap.
Anyways, good luck!

I don't know how someone can be so confident to suggest changes to a product that hasn't been released yet. Big red flag, really. Haven't even seen the execution yet.

I suggest you play the game first before pontificating and suggesting compromises, honestly. If you're asking someone to adopt your vision because you think theirs is heading in "the wrong direction", at least have the courtesy and respect to understand their vision closely first. The game is right around the corner.

As a fellow gamer, I much prefer developers to stay true to their vision as much as possible. See the execution, and THEN offer suggestions if you still have any.

[ggttcc2]

Originally posted by Treemosher:

Originally posted by ggttcc2:

I see. It's your game after all and you should be free from any obligations.

What I suggested in the later part of the post could reasonably work, it might look like a compromise, but a compromise that wouldn't change the core mechanics while being greatly more appealing to some other people.

But that't just my suggestion and vision, which comes cheap.
Anyways, good luck!

I don't know how someone can be so confident to suggest changes to a product that hasn't been released yet. Big red flag, really. Haven't even seen the execution yet.

I suggest you play the game first before pontificating and suggesting compromises, honestly. If you're asking someone to adopt your vision because you think theirs is heading in "the wrong direction", at least have the courtesy and respect to understand their vision closely first. The game is right around the corner.

As a fellow gamer, I much prefer developers to stay true to their vision as much as possible. See the execution, and THEN offer suggestions if you still have any.

Suggestion happens at every stage of game making. Before, during and after.
The earlier it happens, the easier to make adjustments.
It's understandable you don't like my suggestion, but the way you are doing it by denying my right of it, is not very reasonable.

I mean no offense, but I suggest you leave the post alone and move on. Cheers.

[Lungbutter]

Originally posted by ggttcc2:

Originally posted by Treemosher:

I don't know how someone can be so confident to suggest changes to a product that hasn't been released yet. Big red flag, really. Haven't even seen the execution yet.

I suggest you play the game first before pontificating and suggesting compromises, honestly. If you're asking someone to adopt your vision because you think theirs is heading in "the wrong direction", at least have the courtesy and respect to understand their vision closely first. The game is right around the corner.

As a fellow gamer, I much prefer developers to stay true to their vision as much as possible. See the execution, and THEN offer suggestions if you still have any.

Suggestion happens at every stage of game making. Before, during and after.
The earlier it happens, the easier to make adjustments.
It's understandable you don't like my suggestion, but the way you are doing it by denying my right of it, is not very reasonable.

I mean no offense, but I suggest you leave the post alone and move on. Cheers.

Not denying, I'm also suggesting here. And this is an open forum, you don't get to wave people off just because they disagree with you, sorry!