Announcing my 'secret' alliance

[SinfulMonk]

Why is this a feature in the game? Surely the whole point of making a secret pact is that its secret?
Making shady deals on the tabletop without other players being aware is part of the fun.
I want to feel shocked and betrayed by an unknown alliance fouling my battle not have that alliance announced to the entire player base.

[Trushot]

^

[Reffy]

In the board game, you're not allowed to secretly talk to another. So this is a mix between secrecy and the board game rules I think.

[SinfulMonk]

I was under the impression that the board game actively promotes back stabbing in this exact way

[Sexual Harrasm Panda]

yes but every bit of information had to be openly exchanged at the table. and ressources in any way shape or form were forbidden to be traded.

[VIM40]

The live action board game actively speaks out against secret deals? Wow, my group has been doing it wrong.

[nolaJeff]

Originally posted by Reffy:

In the board game, you're not allowed to secretly talk to another. So this is a mix between secrecy and the board game rules I think.

Originally posted by Sexual Harrasm Panda:

yes but every bit of information had to be openly exchanged at the table. and ressources in any way shape or form were forbidden to be traded.

I see nothing in the rules that forbids secret alliances. However, players cannot show their hidden orders or their remaining unused order tokens. The same with bids, they must be made in secret before being shown to everyone.

Page 24 in the rule book under Alliances.

[holy-death]

Originally posted by SinfulMonk:

Why is this a feature in the game? Surely the whole point of making a secret pact is that its secret?

There is nothing about secrecy in the rules.

Alliances

Players are always free (in any phase, at any time) to make promises and seek alliances with other Houses. Promises and alliances, however, are never binding and can be broken for any reason. Even the staunchest ally cannot be 100% sure of the good intentions of his partners. The Iron Throne, after all, can seat only one.

Originally posted by nolaJeff:

I see nothing in the rules that forbids secret alliances.

Page 27 ("Hidden Information") does not state that you can hide who you are allying with, which does suggest that any deals/alliances are the matter of a public record (and that's how my group played the game).

[Sexual Harrasm Panda]

well, id say that secret chat should be implemented. no need for that alliance fuzz. i mean we are talking about a digitalized boardgame which of course does not have the same bottleneck as a physical one on the table. basically, this game has no difference in diplomacy aspects as risk does.

[nolaJeff]

Originally posted by holy-death:

Originally posted by SinfulMonk:

Why is this a feature in the game? Surely the whole point of making a secret pact is that its secret?

There is nothing about secrecy in the rules.

Alliances

Players are always free (in any phase, at any time) to make promises and seek alliances with other Houses. Promises and alliances, however, are never binding and can be broken for any reason. Even the staunchest ally cannot be 100% sure of the good intentions of his partners. The Iron Throne, after all, can seat only one.

Originally posted by nolaJeff:

I see nothing in the rules that forbids secret alliances.

Page 27 ("Hidden Information") does not state that you can hide who you are allying with, which does suggest that any deals/alliances are the matter of a public record (and that's how my group played the game).

"Hidden Information" does not cover Alliances - it's just for the screening of your components such as order tokens. Secondly, among the things it lists, it does not specifically list alliances as having to be public or private.

There is a SPECIFIC Alliances section on page 24. In there, it does not say that alliances need to be public. It lists 3 "strict" rules that must be followed for Alliances and none of them say that they need to be public or private. Therefore it is legal to do both. This is logical and in spirit of the theme of the game and books. If House Lannister had to announce their alliance with House Frey, then I don't think the Red Wedding ever would have happened.

[holy-death]

Originally posted by nolaJeff:

"Hidden Information" does not cover Alliances - it's just for the screening of your components such as order tokens. Secondly, among the things it lists, it does not specifically list alliances as having to be public or private.

It covers hidden information. Keeping your alliance secret would be a hidden information. I find it unlikely that they mentioned what needs to be kept secret everywhere else in the manual and omitted something as significant as alliances.

[nolaJeff]

Originally posted by holy-death:

Originally posted by nolaJeff:

"Hidden Information" does not cover Alliances - it's just for the screening of your components such as order tokens. Secondly, among the things it lists, it does not specifically list alliances as having to be public or private.

It covers hidden information. Keeping your alliance secret would be a hidden information. I find it unlikely that they mentioned what needs to be kept secret everywhere else in the manual and omitted something as significant as alliances.

But the entire "Hidden Information" section does not mention Alliances once. Not once. Zero. Ziltch. Therefore, there is nothing in that section that says Alliances have to be public (or secret) for that matter. And, as I've already pointed out there is nothing on page 24 under Alliances that says they have to be public or secret.

If you and your friends want to play so that Alliances have to be public, that's fine. I'm just stating what the official rules say and don't say.

[holy-death]

Originally posted by nolaJeff:

But the entire "Hidden Information" section does not mention Alliances once. Not once. Zero. Ziltch. Therefore, there is nothing in that section that says Alliances have to be public (or secret) for that matter. And, as I've already pointed out there is nothing on page 24 under Alliances that says they have to be public or secret.

Exactly. There is nothing. Whereas the importance of secret information is mentioned not once, but twice: once in their respective rules and in the separate section.

This is why I think it speaks stronger in favor of alliances being public, rather than secret; because the second interpretation hinges entirely on "this isn't in the rules", while the first takes the whole manual in context.

There is also this:

While players may not reveal placed orders to other players, they are free to plead, cajole, and/or suggest strategies to each other during this step.

Originally posted by nolaJeff:

If you and your friends want to play so that Alliances have to be public, that's fine. I'm just stating what the official rules say and don't say.

That's why I am not saying the proponents of the second interpretation are wrong. Because you are right: the rules are not clear on this, so people are free to decide for themselves what interpretation they find to be more likely.

What makes this even funnier is this very thread - is the game announcing "a secret alliance" working as intended by the rules? Or is this one of the game's bugs/incorrect applications of the rules (we do know some are inconsistent with the manual, so it may very well be the case in this situation as well).

After all, as the OP rightfully mentions; it's not exactly a secret when it's known to everyone who knows there is an "Alliance" tab.

I think there is room for both asking for support and alliance (the former is when you need help, but don't want to commit to helping a particular player), but either the alliance shouldn't be known or shouldn't be called a secret.

[SinfulMonk]

Either way during this pandemic this digital version has made it possible to still play board games with friends. We will just have to whatsapp our secret alliances and ignore the games mechanic all together.
I have played a few games online now in which it was clear I was playing against people who are friends irl and therefore just adds more to the uselessness of the alliance mechanic.

[holy-death]

Originally posted by SinfulMonk:

I have played a few games online now in which it was clear I was playing against people who are friends irl and therefore just adds more to the uselessness of the alliance mechanic.

It's not the alliance mechanic that's the problem. It's the people who play the game with the mindset of working with friends against strangers, rather than playing the game properly.

[nolaJeff]

Originally posted by holy-death:

Originally posted by nolaJeff:

But the entire "Hidden Information" section does not mention Alliances once. Not once. Zero. Ziltch. Therefore, there is nothing in that section that says Alliances have to be public (or secret) for that matter. And, as I've already pointed out there is nothing on page 24 under Alliances that says they have to be public or secret.

Exactly. There is nothing. Whereas the importance of secret information is mentioned not once, but twice: once in their respective rules and in the separate section.

This is why I think it speaks stronger in favor of alliances being public, rather than secret; because the second interpretation hinges entirely on "this isn't in the rules", while the first takes the whole manual in context.

But if it's not in the rules, then how are alliances meant to be public? That makes no sense.
The mere ambiguity of it suggests that you can either make your alliance public or keep it private.

In the Alliances section they specifically say there are "3 strict rules that conspiring players are allowed to do" to when making alliances. Don't you think they would have put "Alliances must be publicly announced" in these rules if that was their intent?

And my last point, and I'll keep it as the last since this seems to be going nowhere, is that people in other gaming community forums (Fantasy Flight, Reddit etc.) have openly chatted about secret alliances and even suggested methods of doing this. One guy says that his group has a "note round" where each player gets to pass a single note to a single player. Other players talk about going into other rooms to discuss etc. And in these forum discussions NOBODY is claiming that Alliances are meant to be public only. Therefore, it is common understanding among the GoT gaming community that Alliances can be secret.

Once again, I think you can run your game the way you see fit if your friends all agree, but I'm just stating what the official rules say. I'm using 1st Ed, btw.