How do you kill Lulu ?

[Chance Sarsis]

Seriously, I really really hate that annoying character. Worst than the child of argons.

I wanna hit her with a hammer up to the moon and never ever see her face again.
The story would have been so much better without her frigging face, I am so mad, she make me mad.

[lilisaur]

Lulu alone is not funny. Except maybe her cooking - the tea party scene is very humorous, especially to old timer DQ fans, as the dialogue plays out like one of the early games battle scenes with one line at a time status statements like "Malroth is confused!" Another character or two post-game has comments about her unusual cooking.

She is funny in concert with Malroth though. Their constant bickering is great.

And it's the Grand Lulutopian Canal you're thinking of.

[ossmpossm]

Lulu... ??? she is main character made by SQUARE ENIX, you don't kill her

[HahAHa]

ossmpossm eredeti hozzászólása:

Lulu... ??? she is main character made by SQUARE ENIX, you don't kill her

really? you need to learn to read everything before you throw out retarded single line statements. the ENTIRE point of this convo was that they are irritated that she cant be removed....which pretty much makes your statement have no point. Lulu is very annoying with her constant Lulutopia stuff , and yes Malroth does mention his empire of evisceration. it is not even close to the amount of times Lulu does it. also Malroth does it in such a way that in most of his dialogues it does not leave you with this feeling of someone trying to lord themselves over you. her character comes across and very pushy and controlling which is the issue here. these types of girls in reality have a real hard time with dealing with reality. makes me sick that in a world where everyone is trying to be a goodie two shoe and be PC with what they say and act. that they would defend a character such as this. but what do i know i am just a meat popcicle.

[Dragonrubi]

Fuq-Off eredeti hozzászólása:

ossmpossm eredeti hozzászólása:

Lulu... ??? she is main character made by SQUARE ENIX, you don't kill her

really? you need to learn to read everything before you throw out retarded single line statements. the ENTIRE point of this convo was that they are irritated that she cant be removed....which pretty much makes your statement have no point. Lulu is very annoying with her constant Lulutopia stuff , and yes Malroth does mention his empire of evisceration. it is not even close to the amount of times Lulu does it. also Malroth does it in such a way that in most of his dialogues it does not leave you with this feeling of someone trying to lord themselves over you. her character comes across and very pushy and controlling which is the issue here. these types of girls in reality have a real hard time with dealing with reality. makes me sick that in a world where everyone is trying to be a goodie two shoe and be PC with what they say and act. that they would defend a character such as this. but what do i know i am just a meat popcicle.

And comparing Malroth with Lulu, i have not finished the game (on 2nd island) but judging since the beginning where this is going, Malroth in theory could be evil, awful and unpleasant. Yet I like him and like when you find Lulu lying in the beach at the start he is like “let’s put her out of her misery” I was like “nooo that’s bad” yet I find it funny.

While Lulu I assume she being one of the main characters helping you, should be more likeable, like I said, perhaps is the Japanese culture is different, but I assume devs supposed her arrogance would be funny and YUK! Perhaps for some, but for me not a little
.
Like I said a pity my VITA broke and DQB1 is not sold here, because I like more the girl in that one, I felt sorry and more engaged with her and DQB1 people, here Lulu on contrary makes me not want to help them.

I am in the middle of 2nd island when I return, she will ask to make the bigLulumine the Lulurailway or something dumb and selfish as that? Please don’t tell me, I don’t want to know :(

[lilisaur]

Fuq-Off eredeti hozzászólása:

also Malroth does it in such a way that in most of his dialogues it does not leave you with this feeling of someone trying to lord themselves over you. her character comes across and very pushy and controlling which is the issue here. these types of girls in reality have a real hard time with dealing with reality.

That is wrong. Malroth's dialogue has him threaten several characters with violence if they don't do what he (or the builder) wants/needs them to do, particularly Perry.

I don't understand why its wrong for the female character (Lulu) to be pushy and controlling to get what she wants, while the male character (Malroth) can physically threaten the other characters to get what he wants.

If you don't like Lulu, fine. But don't compare to Malroth.

[Chance Sarsis]

lilisaur eredeti hozzászólása:

Fuq-Off eredeti hozzászólása:

also Malroth does it in such a way that in most of his dialogues it does not leave you with this feeling of someone trying to lord themselves over you. her character comes across and very pushy and controlling which is the issue here. these types of girls in reality have a real hard time with dealing with reality.

That is wrong. Malroth's dialogue has him threaten several characters with violence if they don't do what he (or the builder) wants/needs them to do, particularly Perry.

I don't understand why its wrong for the female character (Lulu) to be pushy and controlling to get what she wants, while the male character (Malroth) can physically threaten the other characters to get what he wants.

If you don't like Lulu, fine. But don't compare to Malroth.

Malroth isnt being annoying 100% of the time, try not to push the gender issue in your ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥.
Malroth have some great moment, he become your friend, and an ok story is attached to him.
In the other end, you only talk to lulu when she want ♥♥♥♥, stress you 100% of the time, and is a spoiled annoying brat.

regardless, the whole voice in Malroth head that make you wait a full minute per dialogue for no reason is also absolutely awful.

at the end, quest builder 2 is a great game crippled with stupid decision that should have never been made in game.

[Dragonrubi]

lilisaur eredeti hozzászólása:

Fuq-Off eredeti hozzászólása:

also Malroth does it in such a way that in most of his dialogues it does not leave you with this feeling of someone trying to lord themselves over you. her character comes across and very pushy and controlling which is the issue here. these types of girls in reality have a real hard time with dealing with reality.

That is wrong. Malroth's dialogue has him threaten several characters with violence if they don't do what he (or the builder) wants/needs them to do, particularly Perry.

I don't understand why its wrong for the female character (Lulu) to be pushy and controlling to get what she wants, while the male character (Malroth) can physically threaten the other characters to get what he wants.

If you don't like Lulu, fine. But don't compare to Malroth.

You are confusing evil with annoying. Many characters in fiction could be evil but likeable.

Like I said I have not finished the game bur clearly for whom put attention since the beginning Malroth is an evil guy that for some reason ended hanging out with you, he can’t build and relies on brute force.

So he is ok and “in character” in the examples you mention. Malroth could be evil and yes violent, but he is funny and super useful, he praises you often.

Lulu on contrary is bossy, demanding, selfish and more than other thing annoying, wanting to take YOUR island for herself, being evil I don’t remember Malroth being so selfish or narcissist as Lulu is.

[Atro]

People find female characters who are annoying as bad as male characters who are violent. I don't know why, but it happens quite regularly.

I guess it is because we are used to see mean and pushy male characters in movies and series all the time portrayed as likeable characters. In Anime it is the same way. Male characters are allowed a wide range of character flaws. Even being manipulative or brutal is A-Ok, they will still have fans.

On the other hand, a female character is only allowed to have minmal flaws in character that make her dumb, silly, clumsy or otherwise "cute". She can be violent, but ONLY if she is also madly in love with the protagonist.

An absolute No-Go is a female character that brags about herself or is arrogant. Like Lulu. People will hate the ♥♥♥♥ out of that character.

[Dragonrubi]

Atro eredeti hozzászólása:

People find female characters who are annoying as bad as male characters who are violent. I don't know why, but it happens quite regularly.

I guess it is because we are used to see mean and pushy male characters in movies and series all the time portrayed as likeable characters. In Anime it is the same way. Male characters are allowed a wide range of character flaws. Even being manipulative or brutal is A-Ok, they will still have fans.

On the other hand, a female character is only allowed to have minmal flaws in character that make her dumb, silly, clumsy or otherwise "cute". She can be violent, but ONLY if she is also madly in love with the protagonist.

An absolute No-Go is a female character that brags about herself or is arrogant. Like Lulu. People will hate the ♥♥♥♥ out of that character.

Not true, typical, use sexist macho card for criticize a bad designed female character.
Like if making a strong female character good or evil were something new, it has been years and years like that, some are bad and a flop, like Lulu, but some end excellent even being evil

This game also has other female characters that are demanding and bossy, yet they are likeable, none like Lulu.

I would not think different if the character would be “Jonny” and would start being demanding and calling your island all the time “Jonnytopia”.

[lilisaur]

Dragonrubi eredeti hozzászólása:

You are confusing evil with annoying. Many characters in fiction could be evil but likeable.

No, I was comparing Lulu being controlling/pushy with Malroth being controlling/pushy. I was specifically trying not to bring up Malroth's true nature.

And frankly, I'm not sure I'd find a guy who I just met who suggests that we put a half-drowned girl her out of her misery to be very likable, evil or not.

Dragonrubi eredeti hozzászólása:

So he is ok and “in character” in the examples you mention.

I still don't see why its ok for Malroth to be "in character" but Lulu can't be. She was written to be bossy, and to be a foil to Malroth's ambitions. It makes Malroth appear more human by having a rival. Making Malroth appear human is the CENTRAL tenet of the entire story!

Atro eredeti hozzászólása:

Male characters are allowed a wide range of character flaws. Even being manipulative or brutal is A-Ok, they will still have fans.

On the other hand, a female character is only allowed to have minmal flaws in character that make her dumb, silly, clumsy or otherwise "cute". She can be violent, but ONLY if she is also madly in love with the protagonist.

An absolute No-Go is a female character that brags about herself or is arrogant. Like Lulu. People will hate the ♥♥♥♥ out of that character.

This is whataboutism and doesn't address why Malroth is ok and Lulu is not. its just slapping societal conventions on top of the argument. Why can't another character in the game be bossy and a rival to Malroth? Why can't that character be female? You say "People" won't buy it. But I'm people, and I find it ok for Lulu to foil Malroth - I think it makes the story better.

And dragonrubi is right that if she were male and named Johnny, with Johnnytopia talk, arguments about male or female expectations of behavior fall apart. And since Bonanzo and Digby also get in on the act of claiming the island for themselves (Bonanzoland, Digby's Despotate) you must clearly dislike those two characters by the same measure. Bonanzo even tries to claim mayorship over Furrowfield as well. Where's the line of people claiming these two guys are badly written, or flawed characters?

And while there's no indication Lulu is "madly in love" with either protagonist, its clear she does care about them very much. After all, she worries about their safty when they leave the island, she invites the two to a private tea party when they return from capture and she is quite concerned with Malroth's behavior late in the game when he wishes to be left alone. Several times Lulu acknowledges respect for Malroth's cavalier attitude and fearlessness ("I know a boy who simply loves a bit of unnecessary risk.") and he in turn (grudgingly) respects her knowledge of the island and discoveries made while the builder and Malroth were away (such as the river bed.) The others note their behavior isn't really that of enemies. Perry even remarks that they merely "love to hate each other." If you want to go so far as to say that's a spark of candlelight in matters of love, then by your own definition its ok for her to have her flaws.

Frankly, I don't need every NPC to be a goodie-two-shoes and do everything *I* say. I find the flawed characters more interesting. And when flawed characters contribute to another flawed character "changing their ways", all the better. That's the hallmark of good writing in my opinion. Lulu acts as a vital counter to Malroth, so I'm happy she's in the game, bossy as she is. If she deferred all decisions to the builder, she'd be no better than Rosie, Perry, or the others, and Malroth would appear less likable by comparison.

[Dragonrubi]

Actually the ones using whataboutism are the Lulu apologist, “well Lulu does that but what about Malroth?… what about Bonanzo?….”

As I already explain Malroth where the story goes is evil by nature, so in a whataboutism you try to excuse a unlikeable character comparing it with other that in theory is by nature evil. Nice try.

And my argument was that sooner or later is known that an apologist would come with the sexist card “oh you don’t like her because she is female… machos don’t like a female being bossy and assertive…”

Is not only the Lulutopia, that she repeats and repeats until tiredness like none other character, no matter how much you tried to compare, none of the characters is so annoying and repetitive with that nonsense as her, Bonanzo proposes himself as mayor and is pushy, Lulu declares herself as Queen, for whatever reason she considers owner of your island, not even a suggestion as Malroth’s that if you read the thread is more a counter reply and a suggestion when Lulu starts with her nonsense.

ALSO OR WORSE: you spend several hours bonding and helping people in the islands, building liking and bonding with those characters, when you come back what she does? “the queen” complains of your new firends, the people that so hard you worked to bring to the island, talks derogatory of them because “her new subjects” are dirty or sweaty and smelly.

And still people wonder why she is so unlikeable for many of us or is because she is female?

[lilisaur]

Dragonrubi eredeti hozzászólása:

you try to excuse a unlikeable character comparing it with other that in theory is by nature evil. Nice try.

It was a nice try. You're just not getting it.
Why is Malroth being evil (or at least, a dark and twisted sense of morality) excusable but Lulu's bossiness is not? We're just turning this argument over and over and coming back to the same conclusion: that's its a matter of subjectivity. Instead of a binary argument, its volume: there's a line that Lulu has somehow crossed, that Malroth, Bonanzo, Digby and others haven't, but no one can quite quantify where that line is.

I do not have a problem if certain readers of this thread don't like Lulu. I do have a problem with people saying or implying that its wrong for me to like her or that she's unlikable to everyone. I don't think anyone has the right to tell me what I should think, and I apologize if I've come off trying to tell others that what I think is the only way to feel (its not.)

Admittedly, I do not like bossy people either. I would likely not be very friendly to Lulu in real life. But her interactions with Marloth (including the cross armed, look away harumph they both do when they argue) makes me smile. And beyond that, there's a much deeper reason why I've grown fond of her: I find her to be an absolutely critical part of the story, not just as a foil to Malroth but as a representation of humanity (or perhaps more specifically, femininity?) as Malroth learns what it means to be human. Lulu is unlike the other three leading ladies or the builder, who are unlike the other three in different matters: each of the four is a manifestation of a human element that Malroth learns during his time on each of their islands. Rosie is the dreamer and student; Babs is the idol and supporter; Anessa is the symbol of freedom, of strength, of trusting and being trusted; and Lulu is the director, the boss. The builder, as the friend, is along for (most of) the ride. Since the majority of building is expected to take place on Isle of Awakening, I feel the authors purposely made Lulu the director type, who can naturally be more forceful and controlling than the other types (though admittedly, they maybe took it too far with her.) Maybe because I've played through the game several times I've noticed this feature about the leading ladies and as a result have come to respect Lulu more for it, forgiving her bossiness and curt attitude as a necessary evil to make for a good story, much as we must forgive Malroth for what he actually is (the absence of humanity, at least at the start.) As a result, I see a blanket statement that Lulu is just simply bad to be a misunderstanding of her purpose, and claims that the story would have been better off without her to be horribly shortsighted. I think it would be a real tragedy if the game were to be re-released and stripped Lulu of her role or neutered her importance to Malroth's understanding of human emotions.

To be more accurate, perhaps I should say that I do not like Lulu's personality, but I like the Lulu character from a literary standpoint. She's like Darth Vader: I wouldn't really want to be Vader's personal friend but wow is he a great character in the Star Wars stories.

[DesSanctYew]

Malroth's the one character so far I like the most. It's like rest of the characters dialogue is all people you want Malrorth to kill and he offers to.

[Dragonrubi]

lilisaur eredeti hozzászólása:

Dragonrubi eredeti hozzászólása:

you try to excuse a unlikeable character comparing it with other that in theory is by nature evil. Nice try.

It was a nice try. You're just not getting it.
Why is Malroth being evil (or at least, a dark and twisted sense of morality) excusable but Lulu's bossiness is not? We're just turning this argument over and over and coming back to the same conclusion: that's its a matter of subjectivity. Instead of a binary argument, its volume: there's a line that Lulu has somehow crossed, that Malroth, Bonanzo, Digby and others haven't, but no one can quite quantify where that line is.

I do not have a problem if certain readers of this thread don't like Lulu. I do have a problem with people saying or implying that its wrong for me to like her or that she's unlikable to everyone. I don't think anyone has the right to tell me what I should think, and I apologize if I've come off trying to tell others that what I think is the only way to feel (its not.)

Admittedly, I do not like bossy people either. I would likely not be very friendly to Lulu in real life. But her interactions with Marloth (including the cross armed, look away harumph they both do when they argue) makes me smile. And beyond that, there's a much deeper reason why I've grown fond of her: I find her to be an absolutely critical part of the story, not just as a foil to Malroth but as a representation of humanity (or perhaps more specifically, femininity?) as Malroth learns what it means to be human. Lulu is unlike the other three leading ladies or the builder, who are unlike the other three in different matters: each of the four is a manifestation of a human element that Malroth learns during his time on each of their islands. Rosie is the dreamer and student; Babs is the idol and supporter; Anessa is the symbol of freedom, of strength, of trusting and being trusted; and Lulu is the director, the boss. The builder, as the friend, is along for (most of) the ride. Since the majority of building is expected to take place on Isle of Awakening, I feel the authors purposely made Lulu the director type, who can naturally be more forceful and controlling than the other types (though admittedly, they maybe took it too far with her.) Maybe because I've played through the game several times I've noticed this feature about the leading ladies and as a result have come to respect Lulu more for it, forgiving her bossiness and curt attitude as a necessary evil to make for a good story, much as we must forgive Malroth for what he actually is (the absence of humanity, at least at the start.) As a result, I see a blanket statement that Lulu is just simply bad to be a misunderstanding of her purpose, and claims that the story would have been better off without her to be horribly shortsighted. I think it would be a real tragedy if the game were to be re-released and stripped Lulu of her role or neutered her importance to Malroth's understanding of human emotions.

To be more accurate, perhaps I should say that I do not like Lulu's personality, but I like the Lulu character from a literary standpoint. She's like Darth Vader: I wouldn't really want to be Vader's personal friend but wow is he a great character in the Star Wars stories.

Perhaps my problem with her is not to be “bossy” is the least of her problems, more because she is arrogant, annoying and narcissist, in your argument a “good boss” is not like that.

If you compare her with Vader, Malroth should be the one like that, unlikeable and unpleasant, and as you had seen he is BY MUCH more likeable than Lulu, than in theory, in theory is good, and should be lovable but ended being terrible unlikeable and annoying, I don’t see anything interesting on her, I keep my argument since the beginning, devs thought that Lulutopia gag and her megalomania would be funny but they screwed up, ended in a total fail and a very annoying and unpleasant character.

[lilisaur]

I didn't say "good" boss. I just said boss.

Also, the story was written by Japanese who have an impression of bosses as stricter authority figures than most other cultures are used to. For all I know they may have written Lulu as a caricature of the worst features of a boss as a tongue-in-cheek reference that being strict, annoying, and self-centered are not good qualities for a boss. After all, they didn't do any favors for the others who need to act with authority in the game either: Bonanzo tries to claim leadership despite not doing a whole lot to earn it, Brainy Badboon doesn't listen to a word Pastor Al tries to say, Digby oversees the miners but is to afraid to go into the mines himself, and both Anessa and the King totally miss the clues under their noses, with Anessa almost totally against even trying to break the siege or win the war. Even amongst the monsters, Hellen, Zebedee, and Adamn don't seem willing to enforce the rules, though this is somewhat expected since they've realized that their boss, Hargon, is trying to kill them all. The game seems to take a very dim view of leadership - or at least, bad leadership. (Wouldn't be the first time Dragon Quest has included hints of social commentary in their games either.)