Counterbattery - illogical that it gets first strike

[jims]

Counterbattery is a fair enough trait - but it doesn't make any sense that the counterbattery fires before the primary artillery - as it is a response fire. Even in modern times counterbattery radar works by detecting the flight path of already incoming rounds ie it fires after, or at least during the event

[Grondel the 10/10]

this has been discussed a gazillion times already. i agree with all of ur points, but doubt that this will ever be changed.

sers,
Thomas

[LENET]

it's a prophecy trait

[Invisible]

Doesn't it depends on Initative?

[Boredflak]

Originally posted by Invisible:

Doesn't it depends on Initative?

Yes but it is flawed as the counter battery trait says it fires in response to artillery in range firing on a friendly unit. SO regardles of initiative the counter battery SHOULD fire after the other unit. You cannot respond to something that has not happened. They goofed big time on yet another simple thing.

[easylife]

In real life and History, the Artillery fires 1 shot to see where it strikes. The observer reports the distance to the target. Then the aim is corrected before firing the barrage.
So it makes Sense to Counter fire before the main barrage of the enemy starts.

[Kerensky]

I'm pretty sure the change to make it called 'preemptive barrage' would be rather simple.
But from a gameplay perspective, it seems to me the point of this trait was to make it powerful and impactful.

Punishing your attack after it has already been made, especially with artillery that is primary suppression based damage... Not very meaningful. You'll take 1 loss and 4 suppression after you take your shot. Well, you've already taken your shot with full 10 strength, and the retaliation that follows is pretty inconsequential now. 1 damage is as little damage as its possible to inflict and still call it 'damage' and 4 suppression on an artillery unit, which ostensibly is firing from a safe position behind the lines, is automatically shrugged off by the start of your next turn.

When they made it this way, sure maybe they wanted their cake and to eat it too. Give it a cool 'counterbattery fire' name that is very true WW2 military, but also make it a powerful and impactful ability you cannot just ignore and forces you to prioritize that giant 170mm artillery piece planted on that hill.

[Kerensky]

Originally posted by easylife:

In real life and History, the Artillery fires 1 shot to see where it strikes. The observer reports the distance to the target. Then the aim is corrected before firing the barrage.
So it makes Sense to Counter fire before the main barrage of the enemy starts.

This is a great way to think about it, thank you!

Counter battery fire in Panzer Corps 2 is basically an 'interrupt'. Enemy artillery is in position, and ready to fire. But they don't know exactly where to fire. But as your artillery moves into position, takes a sighting shot, and prepares to unleash its full barrage, you get hit with the interrupt from pre-sighted and pre-positioned enemy artillery.

And then, naturally, the answer to dealing with pre-sighted and a pre-positioned enemy? Strike them directly first, with direct Panzer assault or send in the dive bombers. =D

[Boredflak]

Originally posted by easylife:

In real life and History, the Artillery fires 1 shot to see where it strikes. The observer reports the distance to the target. Then the aim is corrected before firing the barrage.
So it makes Sense to Counter fire before the main barrage of the enemy starts.

In today's world what you say would 100% make sense. In WW2 not at all. IN order to target something someone from your side needed to be able to determine where it was coming from, a single or a few shots would not have been able to do that. They did not have the radar ability to track shells in the air and do the mass calculation that modern computers do.

[Dire Wombat]

Originally posted by Boredflak:

In today's world what you say would 100% make sense. In WW2 not at all. IN order to target something someone from your side needed to be able to determine where it was coming from, a single or a few shots would not have been able to do that. They did not have the radar ability to track shells in the air and do the mass calculation that modern computers do.

It's kind of cool how innovative they were in WW2 to effectively target counterbattery fire with that level of tech. They used tac recon planes of course, but also flash ranging, sound ranging, even seismographs later in the war.

FWIW as I understand it, flash ranging was actually easier when fewer guns fired. The observers could get overwhelmed trying to track flashes from barrages, to mitigate this somewhat they were issued flashboards to quickly record the positions. IIRC midwar the Germans started using lower flash powder so the Allies leaned into sound ranging. And later in the war they *did* use radar to some extent.

Point being, while not nearly as accurate as modern times they could direct surprisingly accurate CB fire even onto ranging shots, provided they had trained observers present.

[jims]

Originally posted by easylife:

In real life and History, the Artillery fires 1 shot to see where it strikes. The observer reports the distance to the target. Then the aim is corrected before firing the barrage.
So it makes Sense to Counter fire before the main barrage of the enemy starts.

Not if you are doing a ToT (Time on Target) strike - infantry can find cover from artillery in about 30 seconds, and sighting rounds give more warning than that, so better to lay down a full barrage on a zone before they even know it's coming