Picking the right SPAA gun

[cpobossworth]

I understand that the lighter guns are better against fighters and Tac bombers and the heavier guns are better against strat bombers. But sometimes I have trouble picking out which SPAA gun does the job best.
They seem to come in 3 basic types:
Air attack 6 with rapid fire 1.5 (Sdkfz 10/4, 10/5 & Gepard)
Air attack 8 with rapid fire 2 (Sdkfz 7/1 & Wirbelwind)
Air attack 12 with no rapid fire (Sdkfz 7/2, Mobelwagon & Ostwind)

Now obviously, the 8 with rapid fire 2 is better than a 6 with rapid fire 1.5.
But how about the other two? When is an air attack 12 better than an air attack 8 with rapid fire 2?

Which do you prefer and why?

[Grondel the 10/10]

Originally posted by cpobossworth:

Which do you prefer and why?

If u want to go for "most effective" it is always the Wirbelwind type.
The 8.8 type is only better at shooting down strategics, but strategics don´t do much damage.
The only danger coming from strategics is suppressing ur low caliber air defence.

I usually use the wirbelwind/SdKfz 7/1/FlaK-Vierling to protect my units from tacs and an 8.8 to protect my AA-guns from strategics.

sers,
Thomas

[Lakel]

8.8 can easily nuke even tacticals and fighters if you have expert AA trait, my current one is often a one shot kill from the back row on ones that try, they often dont even see it and just suicide into it.

Far as SPAA guns, the main thng to watch for is if it has the Low Altitude attack trait, which if i recall the 3.7cm do not, putting them as a weaker 8.8 in effectiveness.
The Wirbelwind and equivalents should all have low altitude attack which is what lets them shred the tacticals and fighters.

[Edmon]

It's a question of "Close Combat", just like infantry.

Fighters, Tacticals and Recon Planes have the "close combat" trait and can be attacked by "light" AA that also has the "close combat" trait. This means you can access the close combat defense value (usually 0).

Then it's about making a rule of 10 calculation. If you don't understand the rule of 10, I did a video about it here:
https://youtu.be/HLS_R2oyU6A

The answer roughly is:

12 attack is 40% more pen than 8 attack. It's unlikely to be worth 2x attacks unless the unit has 10 or more defense value (and close combat wise, that's just not going to happen).

However, the 8,8 has either 22 or 24 air attack. That is usually enough to get 100% pen on every air unit there is. Which makes it vastly more reliable than other AA for defending your units, since it does not care about Close Combat (which allows it to hurt Strategic Bombers, too).

An 8,8 + Lethal is the "ultimate" AA setup (or with AA vet) for this reason. But the Wirbelwind is cheap and is effective against Tacticals, which are usually the biggest threat to your tanks in the early and mid war.

Once I work to a blanket of experienced 8,8's, I usually never bother with anything else.

[Grondel the 10/10]

Originally posted by Edmon:

It's a question of "Close Combat", just like infantry.
Fighters, Tacticals and Recon Planes have the "close combat" trait and can be attacked by "light" AA that also has the "close combat" trait. This means you can access the close combat defense value (usually 0).
The answer roughly is:
12 attack is 40% more pen than 8 attack. It's unlikely to be worth 2x attacks unless the unit has 10 or more defense value (and close combat wise, that's just not going to happen).

u are mixing number of attacks and attack value, those are 2 diff things.

Example:
a wirbelwind with 8 attack against 0 close def of tacs and fighters will shoot 20 times due to rapid fire.
at 0% for both units 50% will hit which is 10 times and 80% will "kill" which is 8. but it´s an AA gun and has the suppressing fire trait. unless lethal damage hero or AA veteran is used only 2 kills 6 suppressed.
at 5 stars accuracy of the AA gun is 100% - max. 20% for the 5 stars of the bomber/fighter.
still 20 shots, 16 hits, 6 kills 10 suppressed

Originally posted by Edmon:

However, the 8,8 has either 22 or 24 air attack. That is usually enough to get 100% pen on every air unit there is.

i hate to say it like this but there is no other way to put it.
This is plain and simple wrong.
AA guns shoot at the ground def of the plane if either the plane or the gun does not have
low altitude trait. which is the case for the 8.8.
Ground def of strategics starts at 16 early war and goes up to 24 late war.
it is correct that an 8.8 will do more to a strategic than all the low caliber guns, which usually do nothing at all, but without AA vet or lethal hero an 8.8 will not kill a strategic and certainly not get "100% pen on every air unit there is."
In case of a tactical bomber or fighter plane the pen of the 8.8 will be 100% but it still has suppression fire. even at 5 stars thats only 50% kills of the hits. at 80% accuracy thats 8 hits resulting in 4 kills 4 suppressed.

To make it more easy here are the numbers next to each other for 5 star shooting at 5 star:
Wirbelwind 20 shots, 16 hits, 6 kills 10 suppressed
8.8 10 shots, 8 hits, 4 kills, 4 suppressed

against low flying targets the low caliber guns are best, against high flying targets that try to suppress ur low caliber guns 8.8/12.8 cm is preferable.

Originally posted by Edmon:

An 8,8 + Lethal is the "ultimate" AA setup (or with AA vet) for this reason.

This is correct. lethal hero or AA veteran completely negate the suppression fire trait and turn the 8.8 in the most deadly of AA guns. Without, it depends on what u are shooting at.

Early war when core slots are very precious 1 slot 12 str FlaK 2cm or a little later flak vierling are a better choice than the 8.8 at 3 slots.
If u need lots of mobility the SdKfz variants are interesting.
Once u get ur hands on some decent heros turning an 8.8 into something very deadly is not very hard, but without heros or AA veteran the rapid fire guns are a cheaper and better cover for ur expensive units.

sers,
Thomas

PS:
0 stars:
Wirbelwind against B-17
https://imgur.com/6kFOeDX
Wirbelwind against A-36
https://imgur.com/MlAPjar
8.8 against B-17
https://imgur.com/i9MOEsY
8.8 against A-36
https://imgur.com/b7xZeiC
5 stars:
Wirbelwind against B-17
https://imgur.com/eeCLBTn
Wirbelwind against A-36
https://imgur.com/Ig9Klxd
8.8 against B-17
https://imgur.com/D3k9GnW
8.8 against A-36
https://imgur.com/d0diWFa

[Sovieticozasz]

I usually find that the most important thing is the range on the AA, a 1 range AA is much less "effective" than a 3 range AA. By a large margin, since you can cover much more units for the same ammount of core points, and the unit tends to level up faster.

The 8.8 gives the more bang for your buck beyond 36-37 in my experience. And if by some luck you get a lethal hero or if you play wth veteran anti air trait, there is no contest , the 8.8 deletes. And it is a more than competent Antitank after the Air battle is won, another very important part.

Edit: if you can capture the Brit variant it is even better since it is exactly the same but with 1 more ammo.

[Edmon]

Originally posted by Grondel the 10/10:

u are mixing number of attacks and attack value, those are 2 diff things.

No I am not mixing them, you just misunderstood what I've said.

8 attack against 0 defense is 80% effectiveness.
12 attack against 0 defense is 100% effectiveness.


I said that trading +4 attack for +12 total (which is +40% pen over 8) is not worth it unless the defender has 10 defense, as you'd lose Rapid Fire 2x.


Because at 10 defense:
8 attack against 10 defense is 0% effectiveness (can't pen). So the amount of attacks it has does not matter. You'll do no damage.
12 attack would pen 10 defense with 10% effectiveness.

So in this really niche case, it would be better.

Originally posted by Grondel the 10/10:

Ground def of strategics starts at 16 early war and goes up to 24 late war.

This is just factually incorrect.

The Russians who you'll mostly be fighting have:
Illyushin DB-3 has 11 Ground Defense.
Petlyakov Pe-8 has 13 Ground Defense.
The best Russian 1945 Strategic Bomber the Yermolayev Yer-2 has just 18 Ground Defence.

The best British 1945 bomber has 20 Ground Defense (The Larvo Lancaster MKIII) with all others being lower. Some considerably so. Like the Russians, early British Strategic Bombers have 11 and 13 Ground Defense respectively.


You are making an extremely misleading post by basically saying that everyone is 1945 Alternative history route America, who get the only bomber in the game with 24 Ground Defense (B-32 Dominator) and thus the only Bomber in the game the 8,8 can't damage (without a +AA hero).

But making this point doesn't really make any sense: At that point, no ground-based Anti-Air will work against it, so what you've said does not dispute the fact that the 8,8 remains the best Anti-Air you can get.

The 8,8 CAN pen everything else. I shouldn't have said 100% pen though, for the 8,8 to have 100% effectiveness the defender must have 14 Ground Defense or less. But it CAN pen up to 23 Ground Defense.

That's everything that's not the B-32 Dominator.

[Edmon]

Note: In the grand campaign, you'll get two heroes that add Rapid Fire 2x to anti-air guns.

The Wirbelwind can't benefit from these, which is another nail in the coffin for it, unless your running tons of anti-air guns. It's range is also problematically short, making it hard to protect all your units.

Still, Rapid Fire 2x "light" anti-air guns can be better in niche situations, like the one that Grondel showed. Which comes down to what I said before, in that it has access to the Close Combat Defense value on tacticals, fighters and recons. Where that matters, it can perform slightly better in direct combat.

But I still think your better off layering 8,8's. They have much better coverage due to their range, and you don't have to worry about what the enemy is using, they will deter all aircraft that isn't the B-32.

[Sequester Grundleplith MD]

I look at it from a slightly different approach

For 3 core slots you can either get a 10str88 or 3 12strFlakvierlings
Comparing the two options,

1) the 3Flaks give you 57 total coverage area v 37 for the 88, plus you have more flexibility with where that coverage area is
Adv: 3 Flaks
2)the main danger that you need AA guns for is tactical bombers. the low-altitude trait for the flaks make them more dangerous against tacticals
Adv: 3 Flaks
3) the 88 is better if you give it AA veteran or Lethal
BUT
Lethal can be used on artillery, in both and offensive and defensive capacity
AA veteran costs 2 points that can be used better elsewhere
AND
AA guns get no awards for killing planes, only planes do. So, to min-max, you really want to have your planes kill as many of the enemy's planes as possible. Spending Lethal Heroes or General Traits to OP your 88s is stealing kills from your planes
4) In Axis Operations you get 2 RapidFire2X heroes that dont work on Flakvierlings
BUT
Those hereoes are AA/AT not just AA. Instead of putting them on the 88, to get the same trait you already have on Flaks, you could put them on AT guns.
If you put them on the StuH or captured Soviet SU/ISU AT guns, you even get RapidFire AT and artillery
5) You only need 1 fast deployment hero on an 88 vs 3 for 3 Flaks
True, but you could also use that hero on artillery and use sdkfzAAs if you really want fast deployment AA

So, in general, I just find the light AA options completely superior.

But I'm thankful the game gives us enough options such that everyone can pursue whichever strategy the prefer!

[Edmon]

Originally posted by Sequester Grundleplith MD:

I look at it from a slightly different approach

For 3 core slots you can either get a 10str88 or 3 12strFlakvierlings
Comparing the two options,

1) the 3Flaks give you 57 total coverage area v 37 for the 88, plus you have more flexibility with where that coverage area is
Adv: 3 Flaks
2)the main danger that you need AA guns for is tactical bombers. the low-altitude trait for the flaks make them more dangerous against tacticals
Adv: 3 Flaks
3) the 88 is better if you give it AA veteran or Lethal
BUT
Lethal can be used on artillery, in both and offensive and defensive capacity
AA veteran costs 2 points that can be used better elsewhere
AND
AA guns get no awards for killing planes, only planes do. So, to min-max, you really want to have your planes kill as many of the enemy's planes as possible. Spending Lethal Heroes or General Traits to OP your 88s is stealing kills from your planes
4) In Axis Operations you get 2 RapidFire2X heroes that dont work on Flakvierlings
BUT
Those hereoes are AA/AT not just AA. Instead of putting them on the 88, to get the same trait you already have on Flaks, you could put them on AT guns.
If you put them on the StuH or captured Soviet SU/ISU AT guns, you even get RapidFire AT and artillery
5) You only need 1 fast deployment hero on an 88 vs 3 for 3 Flaks
True, but you could also use that hero on artillery and use sdkfzAAs if you really want fast deployment AA

So, in general, I just find the light AA options completely superior.

But I'm thankful the game gives us enough options such that everyone can pursue whichever strategy the prefer!

A few points here:
1) The 8,8 is an extremely deadly AT gun, so you get both deadly AA early when you need it to defend your units and deadly AT later when you've cleared the sky.
2) Light Flak offers no defense against strategic bombers, which the A.I. will almost certainly use to bomb your precious and expensive artillery, against which they are highly effective.
3) The early 1 slot flaks are slow and awkward to use, as they don't get good transport. They also only have 1.5x rapid fire and lower Attack values. The actually solidly flexible light AA, with strong Attack values is 2 slots, not 1.
4) Typically, you need artillery to defend your AA against soft, having lots of separate AA to defend can be a disadvantage since artillery is expensive.

In the Spanish Civil war they are very good though, because the enemy does not get access to strategic bombers for most of it, and there aren't a lot of excessively deadly tanks/infantry around to instantly kill stray anti-air guns.

[Sequester Grundleplith MD]

[quote=Edmon;3817410454880680230

A few points here:
1) The 8,8 is an extremely deadly AT gun, so you get both deadly AA early when you need it to defend your units and deadly AT later when you've cleared the sky.
2) Light Flak offers no defense against strategic bombers, which the A.I. will almost certainly use to bomb your precious and expensive artillery, against which they are highly effective.
3) The early 1 slot flaks are slow and awkward to use, as they don't get good transport. They also only have 1.5x rapid fire and lower Attack values. The actually solidly flexible light AA, with strong Attack values is 2 slots, not 1.
4) Typically, you need artillery to defend your AA against soft, having lots of separate AA to defend can be a disadvantage since artillery is expensive.

In the Spanish Civil war they are very good though, because the enemy does not get access to strategic bombers for most of it, and there aren't a lot of excessively deadly tanks/infantry around to instantly kill stray anti-air guns. [/quote]

1) Sure, but you need AT support until you clear the sky, so if you're already bring AT guns for the first few rounds when the 88 is busy, you dont really need the help from the 88 later
2) Light flaks still do suppression damage against bombers, and bombers max damage 3hps at most. Strategic bombers are not that good, sorry.
3) the 2cm flakvierlings have the same speed with a halftrack as the 88: 6. It also only costs 1 slot, with 8 air attack and 2x rapidfire. 8 is more that sufficient because, as stated, it has the low-altitude attack rating and mos planes have 0 defense against it
4) light AA in the early war is actually pretty robust (relatively speaking) against infantry with rapid fire. If you're back line is getting attacked by infantry, you have a problem no matter what units youre using

[Droogan]

Throw a Camo hero on those 8.8s along with others (Lethal) to really annihilate enemy planes. Ultimate +

[Vathek1]

Unless recent updates have changed things since I last played this game, the Flakvierlings are the ideal AA to choose for most applications--especially when you are playing with AA Veteran general trait.

The 8.8cm guns are also good, but they are expensive in terms of core slots. However, the 88s double as excellent AT guns until the end of the war, so it's always worthwhile to have at least one 88 amidst your core forces. Just make sure to keep it protected from direct attacks by infantry, since towed AT weapons are quite vulnerable to infantry assaults.

The 3.7 cm guns are in sort of an odd place--they aren't great against tactical bombers or strategic ones, and their value as AT weapons is quickly outclassed by advancements in tank technology as you progress through the campaign.

But if you could only pick one type of AA to use, I would go with the Flakvierlings, since tactical bombers are much more dangerous to your ground forces than strategic bombers. Moreover, the quad 20mm guns will tear apart enemy fighters (with AA Veteran) or at least suppress them very effectively, giving your own fighters significant advantages in combat over your own lines.

Enemy strategic bombers are more annoying than dangerous to non-naval ground units.

[Ahoy]

Wirbelwind > 88mm > Gepard >>>>>>> Ostwind. You don't have to deal with strategy bomber most of time. When it comes to fighters and tactic bombers, the 12-attack gun is the worst of all SPAA that you should never buy. It doesn't have low altitude attack. Most fighter before 43 have at least 5 ground defenses, and most tac bombers have at least 3 ground defenses. This means your effective attack against a fighter is at most 7, and 9 against a tactic bomber. Their ground defense is much higher in the later years. Since Wirbelwind has the low altitude attack trait, it always has an effective attack of 8. So the Ostwind has an even lower effective attack than a Wirbelwind, and it doesn't have rapid fire. The 12-attack gun is pure trash and should never be used under any circumstances.

That was about AA mode. They all have AT mode. When it comes to AT, obviously 88mm is a much better gun. Neither the 12-attack gun and the 8-attack gun can scratch any tanks. But the 8-attack gun actually has a decent soft attack of 6, paired with the rapid fire x2 and very high initiative, it can deal more damage to enemy infantry in open terrain than your own infantry (in SCW). If you get a few medals or give it the hero butcher, the 8-attack gun is actually the most effective infantry killing machine in open terrain.

[Vathek1]

Originally posted by Ahoy:

But the 8-attack gun actually has a decent soft attack of 6, paired with the rapid fire x2 and very high initiative, it can deal more damage to enemy infantry in open terrain than your own infantry (in SCW). If you get a few medals or give it the hero butcher, the 8-attack gun is actually the most effective infantry killing machine in open terrain.

Don't AT weapons (including AA guns deployed in AT mode) suffer a massive penalty to initiative when being used to attack? Thus, the high initiative wouldn't really factor in. I recall PzC 2 having that feature, but it might only apply when towed AT are moved before being issued an attack order.

[Grondel the 10/10]

Originally posted by Vathek1:

Originally posted by Ahoy:

But the 8-attack gun actually has a decent soft attack of 6, paired with the rapid fire x2 and very high initiative, it can deal more damage to enemy infantry in open terrain than your own infantry (in SCW). If you get a few medals or give it the hero butcher, the 8-attack gun is actually the most effective infantry killing machine in open terrain.

Don't AT weapons (including AA guns deployed in AT mode) suffer a massive penalty to initiative when being used to attack? Thus, the high initiative wouldn't really factor in. I recall PzC 2 having that feature, but it might only apply when towed AT are moved before being issued an attack order.

the initiative is only reduced when moved. if u shoot without moving it stays high. HitandRun hero´s negate that and the initiative stays high after move.

sers,
Thomas