how to use tanks?

[nordstern]

maybe this is a stupid question, but i do not see the sence of it currently.

I have defeated the russians in kiev (middle-path), so i have i think half the game. I have no DLCs.

My tanks are fast and devastating against enemy support units on open field: scouts, artillery, AA, etc. But useless against cities and counter attacks. Thats i think normal. But i have seen hat my infantry can handle armored attacks very well too. They also can defeat support units in open field good and with trucks or amored vehicles they are fast too.

In many situations i miss infantry to take a city or so. But never i think i need more tanks. Yes they can circle fast. But they can not defend themselves.

So my current core army turns more and more to a more ww1-army: artillery, infantry and planes. I only have the 4 tanks from the beginning. I do not see why tanks won wars and battles in ww2. I currently playing like ww1 and have much lesser loses and its much easier. Also the ai seem not to react on airstrikes and artillerystrikes. So you can destroy enemy tanks and units in open field without combat.
Yes i know, tanks have their situations. But nothing that the 4 starting units can not handle. So i build up only planes, infantry and artillery. Currently i have 6 infantry, 8 artillerys, 3 fighter, 6 dive bombers and also 2 bombers.

So are tanks really so weak or how do i use them correct?

[Boredflak]

Your infantry siting in the open cannot handle tanks. Especially if said infantry is on trucks. Yes if the infantry is in a city or rough terrain the infantry can deal with tanks but in the open tanks rule. You say you only have the 4 tanks from the beginning, does that mean you have 4 tanks or that you have 4 tanks from the start of the game IE have you upgraded them? The tanks you get early are very poor. If you are fighting with 1939 tanks they are in big trouble at Kiev and beyond.

[SPAMBO]

Not knowing the specifics of your playstyle, I'd say you are moving tanks into close terrain and/or attacking close terrain too often. If you set yourself a rule never to move a tank into close terrain, I think you'll see they are actually quite sturdy.

[ScarScream]

I think he means he loses too much prestige by using tanks over other types of units?

Remember that every units needs support from artillery/ATG/AA and fighter plane support so they can go through a battle without too much damage.

Tanks by themselves will get a lot of damage and cost a lot to replenish. Always keep your forces supported.

[nordstern]

ScarCream is right. My tanks generate to much loses. Especially to counter attacks against infantry.

I upgrade them every time i can. Currently i have Panzer IV F2. I can crush the enemy tanks in open field. But for this i do not need much tanks. Because their are no great tank offensives from the AI currently. So my 4 tanks can handle all they must. From encirclements to anti-tank attacks. My infantry is the punching bag, even in open field their casulties are cheaper and lesser than my tanks. And my artillery and dive bombers are clearing the rest.

My infantry in open field gain max. 1:1 casulties against enemy tanks and are much cheaper to reinforce, often also 1:2 or so in the first attack (base-entrenchment). I am using my infantry so the always unload themselves, so during turn they never stay in trucks or so. Because then they gain huge casulties if attacked.

My tactic in the air is, to give them some targets and then crush them. I focus on enemy fighters, so my divebombers can perform and than enemy dive bombers and at last their bombers. I do not use AA (i have 2 in reserve, but in 3 battles they shoot one time on planes, so i send them in reserve), instead in reinforced my fighters from 2 to 4.

But the main problem is still: my tanks get huge casulties on attack against infantry even on open field. And more bigger casulties in counter attacks. So infantry is i think the better allround solution, tanks are an expensive situational solution. So i have 4 and i do not know why i should have more. I want more Planes and Infantry and maybe 2 more dive bombers. But nothing else.

[Grondel the 10/10]

Originally posted by nordstern:

My infantry in open field gain max. 1:1 casulties against enemy tanks and are much cheaper to reinforce, often also 1:2 or so in the first attack (base-entrenchment).

There is only 1 terrain with base entrenchment that is open terrain, which is fortification.
If a terrain has a base entrenchment chances are roughly 95% it is closed terrain where infantrie has advantage over tanks.

May guess would be the same as SPAMBO, u are moving tanks into closed terrain or attacking into closed terrain.

sers,
Thomas

[nordstern]

i do not know what open terrain is. I think close terrain are optical seen as cities, woods, hills, etc. And open fields like grasland and other flat land is always no close terrain.

[Grondel the 10/10]

Originally posted by nordstern:

i do not know what open terrain is. I think close terrain are optical seen as cities, woods, hills, etc. And open fields like grasland and other flat land is always no close terrain.

when u move the courser on it at the bottom u have a little "i" in the picture. mouse over it to see the tile stats. most important is the initiative cap. tanks main advantage is initiative, any cap makes them worse. bad weather can result in an initiative cap, too. u can see that at the top right of the screen.

Tanks start to become very usefull once u managed to get them "Steamroller". In the base game it's 10 overruns, in the AO 25.
Once u have that tanks do no longer take damage if they manage to wipe out the enemy unit, no matter what the prediction said.

sers,
Thomas

[Hercule Poirot]

Originally posted by nordstern:

maybe this is a stupid question, but i do not see the sence of it currently.

I have defeated the russians in kiev (middle-path), so i have i think half the game. I have no DLCs.

My tanks are fast and devastating against enemy support units on open field: scouts, artillery, AA, etc. But useless against cities and counter attacks. Thats i think normal. But i have seen hat my infantry can handle armored attacks very well too. They also can defeat support units in open field good and with trucks or amored vehicles they are fast too.

In many situations i miss infantry to take a city or so. But never i think i need more tanks. Yes they can circle fast. But they can not defend themselves.

So my current core army turns more and more to a more ww1-army: artillery, infantry and planes. I only have the 4 tanks from the beginning. I do not see why tanks won wars and battles in ww2. I currently playing like ww1 and have much lesser loses and its much easier. Also the ai seem not to react on airstrikes and artillerystrikes. So you can destroy enemy tanks and units in open field without combat.
Yes i know, tanks have their situations. But nothing that the 4 starting units can not handle. So i build up only planes, infantry and artillery. Currently i have 6 infantry, 8 artillerys, 3 fighter, 6 dive bombers and also 2 bombers.

So are tanks really so weak or how do i use them correct?

i guess thats the magic of this game. many different play styles are possible. no tanks, no infantry, no aircraft, no artillery.... its all possible.
its been a while since i played the original campaign but in the DLC campaign i sometimes wonder why to use infantry at all. in my latest run i used 1 (one), ocassionaly 2 infantry units for the play through with 6-10 tanks...

i would say the main advantage of tanks is the overrun ability that they have by default. A fully pimped out tank (common in mid to late dlc campaign) can destroy as many units in open field without taking damage as it has ammunition. So tanks are unmatched in removing enemy units quickly in the open.
Also for the DLC campaign or the (excellent) storm over europe or panzergeneral 1 mods (to name two), units that can strike fast and hard are needed to achieve some of the bonus objectives.

Design wise you can propably seperate two main obstacles: enemy attacks across open field and enemy "strong points" of infantry/AT/artillery/AA combos entrenched in close terrain. Stock tanks (without vigilant/ignore entrenchment heroes) are superior to other units in clearing out open fields and enemy counter attacks quickly to enable your infantry/artillery to take out strong points quickly.

You surely can fill these different roles with other classes but thats really is just a package of upsides and downsides exchanged for another...

i also struggle to see infantry without AT support fairing well against elite tanks in the open field, at least in the DLC campaign or mods mentioned. And i am pretty sure 5 star Pioniere strength 20 cost as much replenishing as Panther A with five stars. or at least neither is cheap.

[RobOda]

Well, the defensive infantry for open terrain is supposed to be the HW teams. Regardless, Infantry should never be in the open full stop. Even in closed terrain, they'll be superior if backed with artillery and AT combined.


Tanks are beasts, once improved to get steamroller, they can ruin battlefields. My own tactical doctrine is to operate tanks in three member hunting packs.

An infantry tank, a main battle tank and an SPAT gun for support. Alongside these, I may include a SPART gun, though this isn't always necessary as open terrain usually doesn't need suppression, but if you do need it, then Strategic bombers are handy here. Strat's also have a benefit of reducing movement and ammo counts, which if used against slower heavy vehicles can force a quick retreat, or at the very least make them impotent by eliminating their ammo stores.


They roam the battleground with armoured recon (duh), and a SPAA gun, normally a 7/2, double fire, low alt attack, because Tactical bombers tend to be direct counters to tanks etc. (If you run Anti-Air vet, you'll decimate the enemy air this way.)


Tank groups also have a fighter and a tactical bomber in range for support. TAC's dominate open terrain, fighters provide escort and combine with SPAA to wipe out enemy air.


The infantry tank is simply a tank with higher soft attack, but in cases where there's no distinction then a mobile tank and a heavy tank is a good combo. The SPAT provides assistance as the most dangerous opponent other than the air units, is going to be armoured units. Infantry itself should not be bothering your tank units. (By infantry tank, I do not mean flametanks - they usually cannot stand up to counter attacks by other tanks. My flametanks go in support of the infantry funny enough.)


In situations where there is heavy SPAT presence on the enemy side, supporting them with towed-AT (hard counter to SPATs, soft targets so they don't get hit, even more brutal if you take aggressive deployment), is a good idea as well. Towed AT usually isn't that amazing against tanks themselves, when facing enemy towed AT, the TAC/STRAT in combination with either tank is usually enough to dislodge them anyway.

Terrain is always important in PZC, a tank should be in the open, every day and paired with similar units for open warfare.

Closed terrain is the realm of artillery, strategic bombers, infantry and flametanks IMO.

[nordstern]

In original terrain their is no really open field. And one infantry can withstand a tank with no problems. The 2nd or 3rd attack is desasterious. But currently this did not happen.. only 2-3 times and only cavalry.

But in my actual game to conquer moskau and after this the map charkov was tricky. The spam of tanks was really bad for my infantry. I lost 2 units.. the first in the whole camapaign and only my tanks could prevent worse and also a massive usage of artillery and planes if possible. This shows me the limits of my tactics. About 5-6 turns i thought i will lose this battle. At the end i won, because the ai got limited reinforcements and had huge amounts casulties.
Also charkow was the first map, were you could use the advantege of tanks: they have space, enemy tanks and many open field light infantry, guns and co. Maybe because i upgraded my tanks.. so tanks gets better and so more effective with the time and till now they were weak.. really weak.

I think i will increase the number of tanks. But after all only if i have the slots for it. Prestige is no problem. I have 20k.

[ScarScream]

Originally posted by nordstern:

In original terrain their is no really open field. And one infantry can withstand a tank with no problems. The 2nd or 3rd attack is desasterious. But currently this did not happen.. only 2-3 times and only cavalry.

But in my actual game to conquer moskau and after this the map charkov was tricky. The spam of tanks was really bad for my infantry. I lost 2 units.. the first in the whole camapaign and only my tanks could prevent worse and also a massive usage of artillery and planes if possible. This shows me the limits of my tactics. About 5-6 turns i thought i will lose this battle. At the end i won, because the ai got limited reinforcements and had huge amounts casulties.
Also charkow was the first map, were you could use the advantege of tanks: they have space, enemy tanks and many open field light infantry, guns and co. Maybe because i upgraded my tanks.. so tanks gets better and so more effective with the time and till now they were weak.. really weak.

I think i will increase the number of tanks. But after all only if i have the slots for it. Prestige is no problem. I have 20k.

Yes, when it comes to Barbarossa and later on in the USSR the maps can be huge so fielding at least 6-8 tanks is a must IMO.
Once they all have steamroller they become almost unstoppable especially if you capture T-34s early on with their 6 movement (+1 with master of blitzkrieg) and field them with the right hero combinations.

[nordstern]

I have no steamroller... get no hero curretly.. most of my heros are useless for tanks.

[Grondel the 10/10]

Originally posted by nordstern:

I have no steamroller... get no hero curretly.. most of my heros are useless for tanks.

u get steamroller when a unit with overrun performs a certain number of overruns.
check the medal tab of a unit with overrun(all tanks).

This is the main reason for using tanks early in the game. teach them steamroller.

sers,
Thomas

[nordstern]

i made some overruns. My most was 3 units in a quene. I will look again.

[SPAMBO]

Originally posted by nordstern:

i made some overruns. My most was 3 units in a quene. I will look again.

I think Grondel was implying a purposeful effort be made to get the steamroller trait on to the tanks ASAP. Myself, I designate a given tank with camoflague detoting it as the "work in progress" steamroller unit. Any opportunity for overruns will go to that tank. Then on to the next, rinse/repeat. Once you get the overrun, as noted previously by others, you will take no damage for an overrun event. This should save you a fair clip of prestige.