Crete scenario AI is overpowered

[mike_hanna211]

I just got this game and I'm no stranger to military strategy games.

That being said, I opted in this scenario to have air superiority and send the bulk of my paratroopers to the west part of Crete, along the map edge. I land my troops in hill terrain whenever possible. I knocked out all the allied aircraft out of the sky. I feel like I have a good foothold. Then it happens.

The AI starts attacking with numerous infantry and cavalry attacks. The defending hex is the terrain used for that battle, and the AI ALWAYS knocks out 6+ of my unit's health in a single attack. Conversely, I typically do 1 - 3 damage per attack, even with mass attack bonuses, and Stuka or Heinkel bombing runs. Literally every round is them just closing and annihilating each unit as they approach.

Why is it when they attack, from high ground to high ground, they out-damage my troops?

[ozzieduke64]

Been a while since i've played , but check your close terrain defence of your parra's. I would think it's 0. Second look at your's and the allies experience . Third if 2 or 3 units are around yours they will get a bonus when attacking

[mike_hanna211]

Originally posted by ozzieduke64:

Been a while since i've played , but check your close terrain defence of your parra's. I would think it's 0. Second look at your's and the allies experience . Third if 2 or 3 units are around yours they will get a bonus when attacking

Yep, checked all those. In fact, every infantry unit in this scenario has a Close Defense of 0. And yeah you get a mass attack bonus, but it happens even when it's one-on-one. Seems battles in the same terrain should be a little more even.

[Lakel]

At that point it sounds like a case of inexperienced paratroopers. Far as im aware paratroopers are up there in stats, just outshone by heavy infantry.

[Virgil-SKY]

Originally posted by mike_hanna211:

Yep, checked all those. In fact, every infantry unit in this scenario has a Close Defense of 0. And yeah you get a mass attack bonus, but it happens even when it's one-on-one. Seems battles in the same terrain should be a little more even.

Incorrect. Greece has no regular infantry, the only one on foot (that is, except cavalry) is Mountain Infantry, which get +5 Attack and +5 Defence when in mountain hexes. Mountain infantry naturally has 2 Close Defense, and with +5 it will be 7, that's already equal to the status of Engineer units, and 9+5 Soft Attack against your 11 Soft Attack Fallshirmjaegers, plus ignoring your entrenchment level, of course they will win every fight if you don't suppress them with bombardment.

[Boredflak]

Mountain Infantry get the bonus against Mountains and HILLS. It is important to airlift in some artillery ASP to help support your para and other troops. You can airlift regular infantry as well so a couple pioneers really help.

[mike_hanna211]

Originally posted by Virgil-SKY:

Originally posted by mike_hanna211:

Yep, checked all those. In fact, every infantry unit in this scenario has a Close Defense of 0. And yeah you get a mass attack bonus, but it happens even when it's one-on-one. Seems battles in the same terrain should be a little more even.

Incorrect. Greece has no regular infantry, the only one on foot (that is, except cavalry) is Mountain Infantry, which get +5 Attack and +5 Defence when in mountain hexes. Mountain infantry naturally has 2 Close Defense, and with +5 it will be 7, that's already equal to the status of Engineer units, and 9+5 Soft Attack against your 11 Soft Attack Fallshirmjaegers, plus ignoring your entrenchment level, of course they will win every fight if you don't suppress them with bombardment.

There isn't just Greek units on Crete though. There are British infantry as well and cavalry units. I will check on the mountain infantry stats next time I attempt this scenario. I have a good feeling that the uneven battles take place even against other units besides the Greek mountain infantry.

Originally posted by Boredflak:

Mountain Infantry get the bonus against Mountains and HILLS. It is important to airlift in some artillery ASP to help support your para and other troops. You can airlift regular infantry as well so a couple pioneers really help.

Airlifting artillery and other infantry requires taking an airfield, which I haven't been able to do. For the beginning, all I can use is strategic bombers as artillery I suppose.

[mike_hanna211]

Just checked the scenario again briefly to see the initial enemy troop placements. All the troops along the north of Crete are New Zealand, Australian, and British regular infantry. I flew some planes and spotted some Greek cavalry further south. I couldn't spot any Greek mountain infantry in the first turn but I wasn't that thorough in my search.

So I would assume that attacking these units in close terrain, uses their Close Defense rating (0) and they have no other bonuses. If my fallshirmjaegers have an Attack rating of 11 against a CD rating of 0, I should be smashing them each attack. More so if I have multiple units around the attacked enemy unit. It just never works out that way. Also, fallshirmjaegers have a bonus against fortifications (I believe it's a +5 attack). I don't know if that's specifically fortifications or if that includes entrenched units.

Which makes me think, the enemy probably has a high entrenchment rating. That's the only thing I initially didn't consider.

[mike_hanna211]

Another update, I started the scenario fresh. I purchased Do-217 bombers to use as artillery during my initial landings (they have the highest Soft Attack rating of the bombers with 18). I also purchased more Bf-109f fighters because I want air superiority. I focused on the western peninsula and made 5 landings, seizing one objective location.

I examined the stats on the units before committing to battle. And, unless I'm missing something, it seems... odd. Infantry have a Close Defense (CD) of 0 but a Ground Defense (GD) of 11. CD is used in close terrain and in cities, villages, etc. So, defending in close terrain would be a slaughter, against other infantry, compared to defending in open terrain. While defending in the open, which presumably uses the GD rating instead of CD, should wield less losses. This is of course, without any bomber or artillery support, just infantry vs. infantry.

What doesn't make sense is the GR cavalry and NZ infantry still decimate my infantry when they attack, typically doing 5 - 7 damage, while they only sustain 1 damage. And this is regardless of the terrain they are attacking into (open terrain where my GD is 11), without artillery support, and one-on-one. Additionally, that was after my Do-217s bombed the attacking units during my turn. I lost 4 units of fallshirmjaegers by turn 4 and they lost nothing but air units. And their cavalry were chasing down my remaining units that I had dropped on the western peninsula, to reinforce my initial landing. By turn 3 the first GR mountain infantry arrived (they used a forced march, attacked one of my units and completely beat it).

When I attacked a NZ infantry unit, on turn 2 (after my initial landings), the enemy had an entrenchment of 2/10, was in open territory, and I had another adjacent unit for a mass attack bonus. I also used my Do-217 bomber to bombard before the attack. I attacked twice and both my units lost 5 strength, and each time they lost 3 (for a total lost of 6 strength).

I can clear the skies of enemy aircraft without any issues. The ground battles are just "whack" and make no sense to me at all.

There must be a different strategy to this scenario. Perhaps landing in the west, but keeping the supply lines open on the western border. And using my infantry to form a defense to prevent the units on the peninsula from being cutoff from supplies.

[Green Knight]

You should mass your forces in the West, not spread them around. It's easier to land here and it will take the AI some time* to send its forces from the East to attack you. In the meantime you can get all your boots on the ground, clear the air and set up a defensive perimeter. Then you can push outward and take the entire island. Reembarking paras to create encirclements is crazy powerful.

* If you use some of your units as a diversion you can drop them some distance to the East from the main force. They will die but it will delay the AI for several more turns so you can have a more advantageous position when the expansion starts.

A video: https://youtu.be/_1c8BcBYUCw

[Green Knight]

Originally posted by mike_hanna211:

I examined the stats on the units before committing to battle. And, unless I'm missing something, it seems... odd. Infantry have a Close Defense (CD) of 0 but a Ground Defense (GD) of 11. CD is used in close terrain and in cities, villages, etc. So, defending in close terrain would be a slaughter, against other infantry, compared to defending in open terrain. While defending in the open, which presumably uses the GD rating instead of CD, should wield less losses. This is of course, without any bomber or artillery support, just infantry vs. infantry.

This is indeed correct and a design feature. However, you must also account for the base entrenchment of close terrain, which is often high, and greatly reduces accuracy. So the difference between 0 defense and 11 defense is not THAT big actually.

That said, close terrain battles ARE slaughter.

[mike_hanna211]

Originally posted by Green Knight:

You should mass your forces in the West, not spread them around. It's easier to land here and it will take the AI some time* to send its forces from the East to attack you. In the meantime you can get all your boots on the ground, clear the air and set up a defensive perimeter. Then you can push outward and take the entire island. Reembarking paras to create encirclements is crazy powerful.

* If you use some of your units as a diversion you can drop them some distance to the East from the main force. They will die but it will delay the AI for several more turns so you can have a more advantageous position when the expansion starts.

A video: https://youtu.be/_1c8BcBYUCw

This is funny, I've watched that video. This video was put out in July and apparently there was a patch in June that nerfed paratroopers.

I was going to try his strategy (landing in that middle peninsula) but the transport planes from the middle set of bases couldn't reach it, like he was able to in the video. I would have to switch it up and use the transports from my western bases to make the landings.

Another thing I noticed was his attacking was similar to the tactics I used. However, he was getting much higher numbers on the enemy units. I don't know if that has to do with the enemy units being encircled or not. I thought I read that being encircled has a slow effect (suppression increases every turn) and the units don't replenish ammunition.

Anyway, I moved on to the campaigns. It's no wonder that 1.1% of players achieved the Crete scenario achievement.

[Jizzlobber]

It was played perfectly before patch 1.2.0. They need to return to the old paratroopers rules, as they already have done for the Axis Operations campaigns.

[Green Knight]

Originally posted by Jizzlobber:

It was played perfectly before patch 1.2.0. They need to return to the old paratroopers rules, as they already have done for the Axis Operations campaigns.

It would still be possible to do under the new rules, but a fair bit harder. Too hard for inexperienced player to be sure.

It's a scenario that works best under the old para rules. Same with Defenders of the Reich really bc a much-needed tactic there is to rush paras to Berlin to break encirclements but that's not practical anymore.

[Green Knight]

To change paras back the way they were for all non-AO scenarios and core campaign, add this to the start of rules.json

"paratrooper_rules" : 1,

[mike_hanna211]

Originally posted by Green Knight:

To change paras back the way they were for all non-AO scenarios and core campaign, add this to the start of rules.json

"paratrooper_rules" : 1,

Cool, I'll give that a shot and see if it works better. Thanks for the tips!