Are Pioneers OP?

[ThisHero]

I am noticing through a lot of posts on here that people really like to go heavy on pioneers. I usually only have one pioneer unit because I was not aware of most military formations having a lot of pioneers among the ranks. I try to play with a core that is more or less historically accurate (combined arms), but I have a feeling pioneers are showing up a lot more in Panzer Corps than was ever the case in WW2. I hope someone with more knowledge can shed some light on this.

So, are pioneers in their current form unrealistically OP? If so, should they be nerfed? And how?

[Green Knight]

Their combination of unprecedented high close defense (no other infantry comes close, except mountain in mountain/hills) and many special abilities (the only really important being ignoring entrenchment) make them very attractive.

Op? It's not for me to conclude, but they certainly are effective. Personally I mix them with some other inf, but that's partly for flavor.

In terms of price for what you get they are OBJECTIVELY cheap. All units are costed according to the same formula... But guess what: special abilities have no cost in that formula. And engineers have some good specials, ones that enhance their raw stats.

Almost like the Pz2C. Or Karl/Gustav.

[eddy16]

I have 2 pioneers, 2 43 Grenadiers, I like that mix

[Hsieh.E]

Pioneers aren't op. If you commit to risky moves, like moving them without an escort in open ground, you can and will get punished for it. Their power comes from the close defence and abilities as stated above.

[Ichthyic]

Originally posted by eddy16:

I have 2 pioneers, 2 43 Grenadiers, I like that mix

yup. pioneers to take, grenadiers to defend.

[Ichthyic]

really the problem is the unrealistically low close defense values of OTHER units, especially tanks, not the pioneers themselves.

I actually modded my game so that tanks starting with the III series on up had progressively better close defense values. I gave tier 3 tanks 2 CC defense, tier 4 4, the tigers 6, the king tigers 8, and ending with the best at the E-75 level with 10 close defense value simply because of the near impenetrable armor. same with the JadgPanzer/JagdTiger; those things were KNOWN for being well nigh impenetrable by any means at the allies disposal, and were just encircled until they ran out of fuel, then left. well, the few that were encountered anyway. You should not be able to just blow them up with pioneer infantry FFS, city tile or no.

so far it has worked out well. if hit with air or artillery first, they still become vulnerable to concerted attacks, which is as it should be. but regular and pioneer infantry now have much less chance to just blow tanks up when they run across them.

what finally triggered me to do this was I set up a camo'd pioneer unit in a forest outside of London, and it literally ambushed (on the enemy's turn) and DESTROYED 3 UK tank units all by itself in one turn. that was just too much.

you still should avoid CC tiles with your tanks, but now at least, if you make that mistake, or are forced to, you typically won't lose your entire tank battalion to a single pioneer unit. same for enemy tanks, btw.

[Ceeker]

On their own, no. They are good.

With some heroes though, they can really dominate the map. My campaign has a pioneer with two attacks per turn hero and the envelopment hero, which causes enemies to surrender when they retreat. It's basically a guaranteed key point capture with a single strat bomber to cause some suppression. Great for marching alone to far away key points while the rest of your core is busy.

I'd hesitate to say that's OP due to the RNG required and the limited numbers possible. They just work for me like a single company of shock troops.