What are the point of torpedo boats?

[epicgamer]

It seems that, no matter how big or small I design my torpedo boats, they get splashed before they can actually deal meaningful damage to anything. Even in large swarms they can at most take on a single lone battleship or maybe two heavily wounded ones. Same goes for the AI, where I see them more as free points rather then a meaningful threat. Without any armor or smoke screen, they seem to die when a casemate looks at them funny, let alone a warship giving them undivided attention.

With that being said... how exactly am I meant to use these in a vaguely cost-effective way, at least one that won't lag out my PC?

[Kuma]

Start a 1890 campaign and focus research into torpedoes.

They are pretty fun from 1890-1900 when you can micro one or two of them to sink a BB.

[fnberger]

depends on the battle situation. Tboats are bearly useless when shot down by a CL screen, while a single BS won't stand a chance vs 4 Tboats. Zerg tactics are quite possible, try overwhelming the enemy by lots of cheap Tboats, likely supported by bigger guns to shoot down the CL screen.

[hansandmg42]

Until fast dreadnoughts making decently fast torpedo boats and sending a horde of them is a good way to deal with capital ships, preferably they should be with a fleet however

[Halfcut_Clarkey]

TBs are good at rushing un-screened BBs and CAs, but you'll need a few of them so as to overwhelm their secondary batteries (and achieve enough hits to sink the target). If you have bases near enemy ports, they can also be quite good at convoy raids, overwhelming the escorts to pepper the merchant ships to death with their guns and, of course, their torpedoes. As such, they are most effective in enclosed waters such as the North Sea, Mediterranean, Caribbean, etc. Their short range makes them less effective in oceanic settings, in my opinion.

You should expect casualties, however, as they are fragile little beasts. They are particularly vulnerable to CLs, and later, DDs.

TBs hit a spike in their effectiveness once you have researched faster and bigger torpedoes, but once DDs start appearing in substantial numbers, TBs quickly become obsolete.

[bobamurphy]

Use their low visibility, damage enemy ships from a distance where you can't be seen , once the damage is sufficient then close in for a torpedo attack, preferably from the front on a parallel course each side of the target, once in range turn 45 degrees away from your victim and watch them try to avoid an interlocking swarm of torpedos

[jfoytek]

I wait till the 850T DD hull.... Before I invest in small ships...

Torpedo boats no matter how much speed you give them seem to always get hit thus sunk.
However the 850T DD hull with speed magically dodges most incoming fire in comparison to a torpedo boat...

So I find Torpedo boats to be utterly useless... and I never build them...
However in contrast the 850T DD I build a crap ton of as I can refit that guy to do work for many years to come and its great to deliver lots of torps to enemy capital ships and run away without ever being hit....

[bobamurphy]

Originally posted by jfoytek:

I wait till the 850T DD hull.... Before I invest in small ships...

Torpedo boats no matter how much speed you give them seem to always get hit thus sunk.
However the 850T DD hull with speed magically dodges most incoming fire in comparison to a torpedo boat...

So I find Torpedo boats to be utterly useless... and I never build them...
However in contrast the 850T DD I build a crap ton of as I can refit that guy to do work for many years to come and its great to deliver lots of torps to enemy capital ships and run away without ever being hit....

if they can't see it they can't shoot it, unless you put it in front or behind a bigger ship that they can see and shoot at, in which case you get screwed by the missed shots.
"utterly useless". A low tonnage refit TB with a decent tower,2 long barrelled 3.5s and decent twin tubes plus minesweeping gear is cheap to build, cheap to maintain, requires bugger all crew and is highly effective in its job

[MrMinMax]

Also, autoresolve seems to favour swarms of TBs.

[thunderspirit2014]

The big advantage of TBs is you can build a ton of them and swarm BBs. You have a 10 knot speed advantage in early scenarios if you do 28 knot TBs, and the slow firing secondaries of 1890 era BBs and CAs are relatively useless. They also are important for commerce raiding or convoy defense. But you must have speed, even if it means fewer torpedoes. Go with small guns, 2" so you have more weight for engines and if possible two torpedoes.

Sitting a TB outside every enemy port will devastate his transport capacity, his economy, and his army logistics.

Have some of your own TBs accompany BBs and CAs to fend off enemy torpedo boat attacks.

For my games, I'll generally start to scrap the TBs by about 1920, because the secondaries on other ships have improved to the point they get carved up. But that's assuming my economy is good enough and fleet large enough to replace them with DDs. Situationally, I still might refit them. With turbines and forced boilers they can hit 38 knots, carry modern torpedoes (and the 2" guns will be mark V by then and a threat to most enemy DDs).

For a strategy in campaigns, for TBs or early DDs both have enough speed to 'withdraw' if the encounter is unfavorable. If you press an encounter and lose, shrug it off. You can build 20 torpedo boats for the cost of a BB.

Tactically, there's a good video that Hurepoix put together on how to do torpedo attacks.

[HB]

I play NAR, in which TB hulls do not become obsolete, so it's another game altogether. In general I find them *extremely* useful as specialised ships: ASW, minelayers, patrol boats tasked with defending merchant traffic. I rarely use them in combat situations, but they are cheap, you can build literlally hundreds of them, and have them deployed everywhere. They make a really good second line, freeing more valuable ships for combat duty.

[Sword_of_Light]

I don't use them as torpedo boats. I've found they're actually pretty good as gunboats, so my designs tend to have torpedoes almost as an after-thought.

Generally, I mount a 4.9" on the bow, and as many 1.1" elsewhere, as many as I can. All guns have the maximum length for a barrel, the largest size, but keep ammo storage standard, as I don't expect them to have long drawn-out battles. I do mount the maximum number of torpedo tubes on the fantail, with the largest and fastest torpedoes. But only one mount.

I also try to put as much speed and maneuverability into a TB as I can.

I put four in all ports that don't have a fleet, and never move them. When war breaks out I set them to Control Sea and let them act as passive raiders. This typically either snares passing enemy ships (Ambush), or Convoy missions.

In battle I run them at the enemy, all ahead flank. If it's a single ship, I try to bracket them - put at least one vessel on either side of a target. This means that if my ships to its starboard fire torpedoes, it will evade to port - giving my ships to port an easy torpedo target.

For multiple ships, I try to keep out of range of most of the ships, trying to pick on one at a time.

I don't withdraw them until hull damage exceeds 50%, or if there's a drop in speed. But I have absolutely no issue with retreating.

Overall, TB are useful for defending large, spread out nations, and doing so cheaply. Even as Italy, I built over 120 of them. I stop building TB when I have mine-laying subs, building those in all ports.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3459905705

The original design was first laid down in 1905, but I've maintained a significant fleet of them throughout the 20th century; 60, plus another 10 of an earlier model. The earliest design from 1890 were either all sunk or scrapped.

[soldier506]

i keep the largest tp boat design and then mod it late campaign. equip with large oxygen torps and high speed. Effective

[thunderspirit2014]

Originally posted by Sword_of_Light:

I stop building TB when I have mine-laying subs, building those in all ports.

I'm wondering how your mine laying subs work out. I didn't think that they did mines for their port but I've never found any clear information on exactly how they work.

[Sword_of_Light]

Originally posted by thunderspirit2014:

I'm wondering how your mine laying subs work out. I didn't think that they did mines for their port but I've never found any clear information on exactly how they work.

I ran a few experiments as Japan a while back.

Minelayer subs are pretty simple. They're small, passive, and lay mines. The more advanced the model, the more mines (ie. bigger minefield). The mines themselves auto-upgrade as your tech advances.

All you have to do is build them, and wait for war. Any port with a minelayer vessel will start building a minefield the next turn after it arrived at the port - in other words, when war starts, the minefields will begin to show up the next month for any port with a minelayer.

Minelayer ships work the same, functioning the same as a minelayer sub while in port. Deployed minelayer vessels do not lay minefields, however. I build a DD minelayer for Japan with the specific intention of mining the Sudra Strait, that narrow body of water between Sumatra and Java. It just floated there, uselessly, not deploying any appreciable minefield.

I believe the same is true for minelayer subs, but I realize I haven't tested that assumption. So, I've just deployed a Minelayer Sub I to Georges Bank, I'll report back with the results.

Results:

After about 4 or 5 months bobbing in the middle of the rich fishing grounds of Georges Bank, the crew of T-53 were getting restless. Ostensibly, their mission was to lay a minefield that would not be subject to the Bay of Fundy's massive tidal shifts. But no orders came from CoNNA until August of 1957, and these were not orders to lay their mines, but to change the sub's rules of engagement to Unrestricted.

Not being a particularly skilled or experienced crew, this only resulted in a torpedo kill, the first for T-53. Unfortunately, it was a British merchant bound for the Ostamerikan port city of Boston. This was a problem because Germany had never been at war with Italy, and, as the British Ambassador was quick to point out. it had been a quarter century since Britain and Italy were opposites on the field of battle, and it would be a shame if this incident forced Britain to enter the war on the side of France.

The minefield around Porto di San Giovanni, T-53's home port, remained intact, despite the best efforts of the world's strongest tidal bore, and after the mistaken sinking, the mission was scrapped and T-53 was sent home. Her captain was quietly transferred, and strongly encouraged to retire early.

[thunderspirit2014]

Originally posted by Sword_of_Light:

Results:

After about 4 or 5 months bobbing in the middle of the rich fishing grounds of Georges Bank, the crew of T-53 were getting restless. Ostensibly, their mission was to lay a minefield that would not be subject to the Bay of Fundy's massive tidal shifts. But no orders came from CoNNA until August of 1957, and these were not orders to lay their mines, but to change the sub's rules of engagement to Unrestricted.

Not being a particularly skilled or experienced crew, this only resulted in a torpedo kill, the first for T-53. Unfortunately, it was a British merchant bound for the Ostamerikan port city of Boston. This was a problem because Germany had never been at war with Italy, and, as the British Ambassador was quick to point out. it had been a quarter century since Britain and Italy were opposites on the field of battle, and it would be a shame if this incident forced Britain to enter the war on the side of France.

The minefield around Porto di San Giovanni, T-53's home port, remained intact, despite the best efforts of the world's strongest tidal bore, and after the mistaken sinking, the mission was scrapped and T-53 was sent home. Her captain was quietly transferred, and strongly encouraged to retire early.

Very interesting results... not quite what I'd hoped. I'd read on another forum that minelayer submarines created a 'field' where deployed, and would maintain that field as long as deployed at that point. If they are only creating a field at their home port, not particularly useful (in my opinion) versus having an older DD / CL refit for that purpose.

In my most recent campaign, Japan has deployed (in 1937) long range cruiser submarines against Germany, which decimated their economy as well as sinking several capital ships. In fact, the subs were so efficient that they managed to hold their own in encounters with DDs, having an equal loss rate. Germany eventually sued for peace, leaving the path open for the long anticipated Japanese war with Britain. Within hours of war being declared, dozens of Japanese fleet submarines were racing for attack positions outside British ports in Asia, Africa, the Mediterranean, and setting a cordon around the British home isles.