Will there ever be playable Ottomans/Turkey?

[Muncible]

As the title says. I think it would be so cool to give the empire the naval engagements it never had in history.

[FallenZulu]

I would not mind playing some of the minor nations such as Greece or Brazil.

[rickerts]

Agreed... even though I don't often succeed with them, I love playing as minor nations. Heck I'd even like Sweden, Bulgaria, Romania or some others. Its the one thing I love most about Victoria 3, Hearts of Iron, CK3, is that I can be anyone.

Other games might be better at this or that in some areas but I enjoy being able to play as just about any country... its why generally I'll play as Austria-Hungary because I feel like its more immersive to me to as a country that isn't quite as buffed as Germany or England, etc.

[Jacky Treehorn]

I don't get why China's in there, other than to take treaty ports from.

[Jabberwock]

Originally posted by *****_ali:

I don't get why China's in there, other than to take treaty ports from.

It's there to conquer Japan, Siberia, Indochina, Australia, Polynesia, etc. Usually the major powers collapsing will leave you unable to conquer much of Europe, the Indian Ocean, or African colonies. It eventually comes down to China vs. the US. It takes a lot of tonnage to invade the US, but it can be done.

[the Baron]

Originally posted by Oggmeista:

it should be shouldn't it?, i mean the clue is in the name Ottoman "Empire", if it is the status of an Empire, then it really should be a major power in the game, that's how i would see it anyway.

Being an empire does not translate to be a naval power. In fact being an empire also does not translate to be a land major power.

What is an empire?
"An empire is a group of separate, but related states that are ruled by a single country. A kingdom is what we might more commonly call a country, or nation-state. Empire refers to the system where one power has control over many separate kingdoms (parts) which are all part of the empire."
https://unacademy.com/content/upsc/difference-between/empire-and-kingdom/

As a interesting fact, Portugal was still an empire in 1999. It ended the moment it gave back Macao to China. In 1890, Portugal was still a big empire if we take into consideration the size of the land territory controlled, but didn't have the industry to build a modern fleet. The same thing applies to the Ottoman Empire. The Spanish empire did have a naval industry capable of building their own ships, and that is a very good reason to have them as a major power in the game.

If we were playing a land war game set in 1890, then yes, the Ottoman Empire should be available as a major power. But this game is focus in the naval warfare.

[Jabberwock]

Originally posted by the Baron:

Originally posted by Oggmeista:

it should be shouldn't it?, i mean the clue is in the name Ottoman "Empire", if it is the status of an Empire, then it really should be a major power in the game, that's how i would see it anyway.

Being an empire does not translate to be a naval power. In fact being an empire also does not translate to be a land major power.

What is an empire?
"An empire is a group of separate, but related states that are ruled by a single country. A kingdom is what we might more commonly call a country, or nation-state. Empire refers to the system where one power has control over many separate kingdoms (parts) which are all part of the empire."
https://unacademy.com/content/upsc/difference-between/empire-and-kingdom/

As a interesting fact, Portugal was still an empire in 1999. It ended the moment it gave back Macao to China. In 1890, Portugal was still a big empire if we take into consideration the size of the land territory controlled, but didn't have the industry to build a modern fleet. The same thing applies to the Ottoman Empire. The Spanish empire did have a naval industry capable of building their own ships, and that is a very good reason to have them as a major power in the game.

If we were playing a land war game set in 1890, then yes, the Ottoman Empire should be available as a major power. But this game is focus in the naval warfare.

There are several other considerations for inclusion as a playable nation. The Ottoman Empire had a navy (as did Greece). They bought it from the Germans in the same manner that the Japanese bought their early navy from Great Britain. Sweden and the Netherlands had significant naval shipyards. but insignificant navies ... they built naval ships for export. The South American nations bought their navies from Europeans and Americans.

I think the Ottomans deserve playable status as much as the Chinese deserve it, but it is very unlikely that they will get added before June. The possibilty exists that the game will be open to modding. I'm sure it would get added to mods.

[the Baron]

Originally posted by Jabberwock:

There are several other considerations for inclusion as a playable nation. The Ottoman Empire had a navy (as did Greece). They bought it from the Germans in the same manner that the Japanese bought their early navy from Great Britain. Sweden and the Netherlands had significant naval shipyards. but insignificant navies ... they built naval ships for export. The South American nations bought their navies from Europeans and Americans.

And all of them are minor nations in game. So is fair.

Originally posted by Jabberwock:

I think the Ottomans deserve playable status as much as the Chinese deserve it, but it is very unlikely that they will get added before June. The possibilty exists that the game will be open to modding. I'm sure it would get added to mods.

There is a big difference. China fleet around 1890 was the strongest navy in Asia. In the same time period, the Ottoman navy was not even close to what the european powers had.

[Jabberwock]

Originally posted by the Baron:

There is a big difference. China fleet around 1890 was the strongest navy in Asia.

Beiyang fleet also bought their capital ships from Germany. Crushed by the French in the 1880s (Tonkin War) barely making an effort, ... then again by the Japanese 10 years later. The phase "paper tiger" comes to mind.

[the Baron]

Originally posted by Jabberwock:

Originally posted by the Baron:

There is a big difference. China fleet around 1890 was the strongest navy in Asia.

Beiyang fleet also bought their capital ships from Germany. Crushed by the French in the 1880s (Tonkin War) barely making an effort, ... then again by the Japanese 10 years later. The phase "paper tiger" comes to mind.

The Beiyang fleet was only one of the four fleets of the Qin dynasty. And the reasons for the defeat are not so simple.

"The Qing Chinese navy at its peak consisted of 78 ships, with a total tonnage of 83,900 tons. However, construction of new ships almost completely stopped in 1888 owing to the Qing dynasty's high expenditures in other fields. Grand Tutor Weng Tonghe advised the Guangxu Emperor to cut all funding to the navy and army, because he did not see Japan as a true threat, and there were several natural disasters during the early 1890s which the emperor thought to be more pressing to expend funds on.[1] Because of the lack of funding, the training of the fleet and personnel essentially came to a standstill, which eventually contributed to its defeat in the Battle of the Yalu River against Japan. Much of the diverted funding was re-directed to the renovation and repairs of the New Summer Palace and construction of a marble boat a total of $12mil was diverted from the naval fund between 1889 and 1894.[2]
Flag of the Admiral of the Beiyang Fleet

Prior to 1888 the budget of the Beiyang fleet was two million taels however in 1888 the Beiyang fleet was formally subordinated to the Navy Yamen (the Qing equivalent to a naval ministry) this saw the budget reduced to 1.3 million taels and in 1891 the Hubu recommended against the purchasing of large guns for the navy and in favour of the reduction of naval personnel, this made any effort of modernisation or even maintenance extremely difficult and meant that many of the Chinese ships went into action in the first Sino-Japanese war."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beiyang_Fleet

But still the fact remains that the Qing navy was the strongest in this time period where the Ottoman navy was not even considered a threat by the european powers.

[Jabberwock]

Thanks, I was aware of the four fleets and have read the Wikipedia article previously, but others haven't, and some of that info was new to me.

To me, it bears a remarkable resemblance to this story from just a decade earlier, which can also be found on Wikipedia:

In 1875, during the reign of Sultan Abdülaziz, the Ottoman Navy had 21 battleships and 173 other types of warships, ranking as the third largest navy in the world after the British and French navies. But the vast size of the navy was too much of a burden for the collapsing Ottoman economy to sustain. Abdülhamid II was aware that the empire needed a navy to shield herself from the ever-growing Russian threat. However, the Ottoman economic crisis of 1875 and the additional financial burden of the disastrous Russo-Turkish War (1877–1878) deprived the Ottoman Empire from the financial resources and economic independence to maintain and modernize a large fleet. The second half of the 19th century was a period of breakthroughs in the field of naval engineering. The Ottoman Navy was rapidly becoming obsolete, and needed to replace all her warships once a decade to keep up with the pace in technological progress – which, given the dismal state of the economy, was clearly not an option.

[CrazyZombie]

Chinese navy in the game is a mix of various foreign elements. What would be the difference with Turkey in that case?

[dulahande]

I feel like Ottomans and Netherlands both deserve to be Major Powers, especially in the earliest start. The Netherlands having Indonesia alone is a big deal...

I wouldn't mind seeing a South American power or two made a Major one by game standards too. Argentina and Brazil especially seem worthy of it. If only from a straight up gameplay thing.

[vanDyck]

1875, yes, maybe you should quote what 1887 (more game relevant) was left:
-3 (large) armoured ships
-4 outdated armoured frigates
-7 armoured corvettes
At the end of the 19. century the ottoman navy was thought as 3. rate navy...

[Jabberwock]

Originally posted by vanDyck:

1875, yes, maybe you should quote what 1887 (more game relevant) was left:
-3 (large) armoured ships
-4 outdated armoured frigates
-7 armoured corvettes
At the end of the 19. century the ottoman navy was thought as 3. rate navy...

That much for a start could be made competitive. The Egyptians had shipbuilding facilities which could be upgraded. The Ottoman Sultan chose not to compete in this arena, he had other priorities - if he could be convinced (by the head of the Navy) to make different choices ... the what if's are what the campaign is about.

[CrazyZombie]

Originally posted by Jabberwock:

Originally posted by vanDyck:

1875, yes, maybe you should quote what 1887 (more game relevant) was left:
-3 (large) armoured ships
-4 outdated armoured frigates
-7 armoured corvettes
At the end of the 19. century the ottoman navy was thought as 3. rate navy...

That much for a start could be made competitive. The Egyptians had shipbuilding facilities which could be upgraded. The Ottoman Sultan chose not to compete in this arena, he had other priorities - if he could be convinced (by the head of the Navy) to make different choices ... the what if's are what the campaign is about.

Exactly: the game allows many naval powers to have fleets, quite exceeding their historical ones - like, Spain after it's disastrous defeat by USA, for example, or China. For gameplay purposes Austria-Hungary exen exists past 1918 and has own fleet, just as post-Versailes Germany.

By this metric I see zero reasons, why Ottomans can't be brought in the game as major power.