Germany has too much disadvantage

[Knight0vvl]

i get it history says Germany had a smaller navy, but the way the economics work you just cant battle it out with GB. i have 2x the victory points i sink almost every ship every engagement. but the economy is a death circle, you cant build new ships without money, you cant build new transports without money and the more transports you lose because you cant defend them because you cant build ships because you lost transports the less money you get for funding which means going broke which in turn effects your GDP meaning you lose money even faster now. if you try to pump up TR numbers you go broke and lose gdp and eventually lose, i mean how is it even feasible that even with training transport and research at 0 im losing money every turn even while sinking prob 100+ GB transports... all the while GB is pumping out new ships with better tech as time progresses i feel as though GB isnt seeing the impact germany does when you sink 10 TR ships every month

[Bramborough]

Have played probably 10 or 12 Germany campaigns.

If you play symmetrically and try to match UK in ship numbers across all types, yeah, you'll run into this problem sooner or later. So don't try to.

My "Germany strategy" (although it's really a more basic "beat current campaign AI" strategy. Works equally well as Britain):

- Design own ship, not auto-gen.
- Build only BBs. Yep, only BB. Not even BC.
- Max crew training slider.
- Max transport slider.
- Zero tech slider.
- Never touch any of these three sliders again.

- Starting budget should allow enough BB's to match enemy BB/BC numbers. Don't worry about CA/CL/DD. You'll have enough tonnage to prevent at-start or early British blockade.

- Keep all your ships in North Sea ports. This means you'll have to check Danzig/Pillau all the time to move them back over; the game loves to send ships here after battles. This is important for the monthly transport sinkings/losses. North Sea is the "contested zone" for transports. (Have you ever seen a "X tranports lost in Baltic Sea" message? I haven't.).

- Many think Sea Control mode is important. I'm not convinced it's really that significant in current state of campaign. I do use it, but I also just let 'em all sit In Being a lot too. It works out fine, and is cheaper.

- With zero tech budget, you'll have plenty of money. Keep building BB's. Maybe 2 every 3 months or so (could afford more/faster $$$-wise, but manpower crew pool needs to keep up as well). As you sink Brit ships and keep building, eventually might even impose a blockade of your own.

- A big assumption here, of course, is that you're winning all the battles which pop up on a given turn. With a well-designed BB, that shouldn't be a problem. And you do say in OP that the battle part isn't your issue. Either way, the ship design, battle tactics/doctrine, etc, are outside the scope of this reply.

Final comment: Yep, I was skeptical too when I heard this recommended. Then I tried it. It works.

[Vuld_Edone]

Originally posted by Bramborough:

Have played probably 10 or 12 Germany campaigns.
(...)
Final comment: Yep, I was skeptical too when I heard this recommended. Then I tried it. It works.

I have no doubt it does. If you cut the game's content by some 3/4th and abuse the meta to death, sure, it's playable.
I'm not sure it's an argument in favor of campaign balance though.

[the little pringles]

Originally posted by Vuld_Edone:

Originally posted by Bramborough:

Have played probably 10 or 12 Germany campaigns.
(...)
Final comment: Yep, I was skeptical too when I heard this recommended. Then I tried it. It works.

I have no doubt it does. If you cut the game's content by some 3/4th and abuse the meta to death, sure, it's playable.
I'm not sure it's an argument in favor of campaign balance though.

dont worry. it will get worse for germany once Russia is added to the campaign.

tbh the main problem is that UK is at too much of an advantage without having to secure all its colonies

[Lakel]

Cant say for later german campaigns but no issue so far on mine upto 1920 using a rounded fleet, just not matching the RN numbers and going instead for larger ships.
Course a lot of it comes down to what the AI generates for its ships, particularly in the case of the occasional clown car you might run into, though they can make some monsters too.

[BOT Kotori]

TBs are super op in the earlier campaigns as well, all you need are BBs and a lot of TBs. The CLs and CAs are deathtraps with the early gun and engine tech. For 1890 and 1900 I basically yoloed all of the british BBs with torpedo boats, even if the torpedoes have like 1km of range.

[Commisar Jon Fuklaw]

Originally posted by BOT Kotori:

snip

Hell, DDT's and - later on - DD's are the same way. The ship building AI doesn't care too much about optimizing speed and turning, so DD spam is viable in every post-1900 campaign. 40 DD's in sea control can also lead to some hilarious ambushes, like a dozen DD's vs a pair of BB's and a CA/CL/DD, which can nearly end a campaign then and there.

I'd say that the ship building AI needs some improvements to combat the freedom that the player has. Between the overreliance on weapons systems that are ineffective during a certain period (usually secondary spam), the frequent skimping on armor, speed, and non-armor defenses, and the utter inability to design in response to what it faces, there are some issues that need addressed.

Honestly, the one "good" thing the ship building AI does is the fact that it spams the everloving hell out of torpedo launchers from 1920 onwards. That alone does more to add danger to DD torpedo charges than pretty much anything else...even if the AI will happily torpedo its own ships to get to yours.

[Bramborough]

Originally posted by Vuld_Edone:

Originally posted by Bramborough:

Have played probably 10 or 12 Germany campaigns.
(...)
Final comment: Yep, I was skeptical too when I heard this recommended. Then I tried it. It works.

I have no doubt it does. If you cut the game's content by some 3/4th and abuse the meta to death, sure, it's playable.
I'm not sure it's an argument in favor of campaign balance though.

No argument here. And wasn't advocating that this is the way it *should* be. It clearly isn't.
There's obviously a need for some improvements and mechanics which better incentivize a balanced fleet (and/or discourage a lopsided composition like this one). And some (not all) of that may simply come from the future implementation of the single longer campaign...I suspect there's all sorts of things which are suboptimal now, but will make more sense (or at least won't be quite as bad) in that context.

But that's not what the OP asked, was it? (edit: actually I guess the OP didn't "ask" anything. Oh well. I just offered a way around the problems being experienced. Didn't say he/she or anyone else has to agree with or use that method. shrug.)

[Knight0vvl]

Originally posted by Lakel:

Cant say for later german campaigns but no issue so far on mine upto 1920 using a rounded fleet, just not matching the RN numbers and going instead for larger ships.
Course a lot of it comes down to what the AI generates for its ships, particularly in the case of the occasional clown car you might run into, though they can make some monsters too.

1920 germany is tough, GB typically has a massive fleet and running any type of sensible fleet costs you the win, you can duke it out for a while i went 2 years but eventually succumbed to unrest because of finances even tho GB had like 5 warnings about spending....and a balanced fleet lands you blockaded right off the bat. to get to 1930 i had to do the above and spam BBs which imo isnt really all that fun tbh. 1930 germany however i found BBs are too costly to keep the blockade off your back and youll need more balance because BB cost is just so high

[=]

Germany isn't that hard. You can't match GB in numbers but you can make enough BBs to prevent blockades (I tend to build 5 at the start and then add to them over the campaign) as well as about 10 CLs and 15 DDs, although I have found that I am instantly blockaded in the 1920 campaign as ships are so expensive. Torpedo boats are highly effective and very cheap in the early campaigns so the larger AI numbers are soon whittled down and the AI isn't very good at ship building so you should have a natural advantage in any larger ship encounters. I just won a 1910 campaign is about 5 turns, I had a large fleet battle where I sunk 4 out of 5 battleships and about a dozen other ships for minimal loss which forced the AI to sue for peace.

I just got another large fleet battle on turn 2 of my 1920 campaign so that should make my blockade problem go away...

[Knight0vvl]

Originally posted by =:

Germany isn't that hard. You can't match GB in numbers but you can make enough BBs to prevent blockades (I tend to build 5 at the start and then add to them over the campaign) as well as about 10 CLs and 15 DDs, although I have found that I am instantly blockaded in the 1920 campaign as ships are so expensive. Torpedo boats are highly effective and very cheap in the early campaigns so the larger AI numbers are soon whittled down and the AI isn't very good at ship building so you should have a natural advantage in any larger ship encounters. I just won a 1910 campaign is about 5 turns, I had a large fleet battle where I sunk 4 out of 5 battleships and about a dozen other ships for minimal loss which forced the AI to sue for peace.

I just got another large fleet battle on turn 2 of my 1920 campaign so that should make my blockade problem go away...

yeah but the issue is thats unrealistic essentially youre just in essence cheating to win and removing half the content of the game spamming bbs......no navy would just have a bunch of BBs nor would it make sense as real world scenario BBs would be taken easily by TBs and heavily torpedo armed DDs. having some heavy boats shouldnt just prevent any type of blockade either....IMO the blockade should be an optional move by AI or players then the opponent should have the option to try to break out of it by massing a fleet and attacking the blockade.

[RaelM]

You can really hurt the Royal Navy by grabbing a few Heavy Cruisers (CA), Cruisers seem to get pulled into Convoy missions quite frequently. This allows you to cripple their economy which in turn causes unrest. My strategy is to build a few BB's to stop blockade and then I focus on CA's, it works really well, sometimes I also build DD's for torpedo shenanigans. I haven't really found a use for CL's though, everything they can do, a CA or DD can do better.

The biggest problem with campaign at the moment is the inability to create task forces. As it stands, certain ship classes have a weighted chance to enter certain missions. It's rare to have a BB in a Convoy Attack mission but it's a regular started in a Convoy Defend.

I also recommend you use 'Sea Control' instead of 'In Being', 'In Being' is just a local patrol whereas 'Sea Control' lets you use the ships full range, this works great with the above CA strategy as you can hit convoys over near Ireland if you have the range.

[Machiavelli]

i literally sinking uk battleships with torpedo boats, so easy man. its not that hard. historically, germany could never keep up.

maybe when the campaign gets expanded with a world map and lots of nations fighting, then it would be easier for you to pick off GB.

[=]

Originally posted by Knight0vvl:

yeah but the issue is thats unrealistic essentially youre just in essence cheating to win and removing half the content of the game spamming bbs......

I don't. I tend to build 5 to match the AI, everything else is a DD or a CL.

In earlier eras BB's are pretty useless anyway as gunnery is extremely inaccurate.

[Anavel Gato]

I prefer using TB with 27 knots and 3 torpedoes launcher. A swarm of 5-6 can sink 2 BB easily.

For CA, 19 knots and put maximum caliber on it, leave secondary to smaller gun size 75mm and 50mm.

For CL, 20 knot, 2 main gun 175mm and abuse the design by pressing control to mount additional gun on it and increase total armor.

I prefer using torp launcher for every single class because in a BB duel, a direct hit from torpedo just change the course of battle real fast from zero to hero.

[Machiavelli]

torps are so op. i dont know if its historical or not. but yea, i can basically win unwinnable battles with them