Is it me or high explosive shells and above are ineffective?

[Anavel Gato]

When using this type of shell, they HEAVILY lack of penetrating power and most of the time got Blocked without even set fire on target. Some people said that the shell shattered when it hit and make these type of shell OBSOLETE. However, Piric Acid I got removed for no reason and this is the best combination for setting target on fire.

How to use them properly then?

[Nitemares]

First off, you need to research explosives and shells.

Picric acid 1 and 3 are still in the game, but only until you research more stable mixtures like TNT (Although picric 3 stays until the end of the game I believe)


What you are experiencing is history.... (yes really). Its the never ending battle between armor and shells and the consequences of that part of history.

As armor plating improved, shells had to improve to actually be able to penetrate said armor. (otherwise shells just shatter on impact and do nothing. and you don't get fires on a shatter as the shell disintegrates, not explode.) One of the inventions to help cut through hardened surface armor where "ballistic capped" shells. New mixtures of chemicals were used for the bursting charges (high- explosives).

But, now the opposite effect started to happen. Over penetrations! shells would cut through a lightly armored ship like a 1000c knife through lukewarm butter! (the shell goes in and out, thorough the entire ship!!!! - and not explode! Doing very little damage to the ship. (yes, it has a hole it in... a small hole compared to the size of the ship, generally)

The trick, is to have shells that have "good" penetration VS the armor the enemy is using... using shells with too high penetration you get over pens, too little penetration you get shatters.

To conflate this issue MORE. Some shells decrease your chance of fires, and some increase it. (don't have the game open so I can't go through them with you, but if you over the explosive shells with your bursting charge selected, it tells you your base fire chance.)

Keep in mind that the base fire chance is modified by the shell type, the Ship you are shooting at, THAT ship's tech level, modifications, and crew level!

Its possible (unlikely) That the AI has a ship with a good enough crew and modules that you just can't set it on fire! (I have a battle cruiser design myself that is -90% chance for fires - before crew training)


There is no "one size fits all" solution, it the solution varies with the enemy you are fighting.

[Anavel Gato]

Originally posted by Nitemares:

First off, you need to research explosives and shells.

Picric acid 1 and 3 are still in the game, but only until you research more stable mixtures like TNT (Although picric 3 stays until the end of the game I believe)


What you are experiencing is history.... (yes really). Its the never ending battle between armor and shells and the consequences of that part of history.

As armor plating improved, shells had to improve to actually be able to penetrate said armor. (otherwise shells just shatter on impact and do nothing. and you don't get fires on a shatter as the shell disintegrates, not explode.) One of the inventions to help cut through hardened surface armor where "ballistic capped" shells. New mixtures of chemicals were used for the bursting charges (high- explosives).

But, now the opposite effect started to happen. Over penetrations! shells would cut through a lightly armored ship like a 1000c knife through lukewarm butter! (the shell goes in and out, thorough the entire ship!!!! - and not explode! Doing very little damage to the ship. (yes, it has a hole it in... a small hole compared to the size of the ship, generally)

The trick, is to have shells that have "good" penetration VS the armor the enemy is using... using shells with too high penetration you get over pens, too little penetration you get shatters.

To conflate this issue MORE. Some shells decrease your chance of fires, and some increase it. (don't have the game open so I can't go through them with you, but if you over the explosive shells with your bursting charge selected, it tells you your base fire chance.)

Keep in mind that the base fire chance is modified by the shell type, the Ship you are shooting at, THAT ship's tech level, modifications, and crew level!

Its possible (unlikely) That the AI has a ship with a good enough crew and modules that you just can't set it on fire! (I have a battle cruiser design myself that is -90% chance for fires - before crew training)


There is no "one size fits all" solution, it the solution varies with the enemy you are fighting.

There is no one size to fits all but you can use several sizes for your guns, LOL.

In fact, I use Picric Acid I for CL while using Penetrating HE shells and Super Heavy Shells. It's really good for burning though. In fact, I prefer Picric Acid I for all my game because it's very good solution for decent burning ammunition.

[Nitemares]

Picric is good up to about Krupp 3 I believe. Once enemy ships start getting into Krupp 4+ then the picric acid usually just shatters or partial pens...

Not mention the HUGE bonus it give your ship for fire (catching) and for critical detonations!

If you check out the left hand side scroll in the ship builder, you will see you ships stats, in there near the bottom of that huge list of stats is your ship's critical failure stats for things like catching fire, flooding, ammo detonation...




TNT3 is good for the later game... its a bit lighter (save tonnage) does more damage (bonus to damage code) and has a good fire chance... AND doesn't cause you ship to imitate a roman candle when smacked hard :D

[Anavel Gato]

Originally posted by Nitemares:

Picric is good up to about Krupp 3 I believe. Once enemy ships start getting into Krupp 4+ then the picric acid usually just shatters or partial pens...

Not mention the HUGE bonus it give your ship for fire (catching) and for critical detonations!

If you check out the left hand side scroll in the ship builder, you will see you ships stats, in there near the bottom of that huge list of stats is your ship's critical failure stats for things like catching fire, flooding, ammo detonation...




TNT3 is good for the later game... its a bit lighter (save tonnage) does more damage (bonus to damage code) and has a good fire chance... AND doesn't cause you ship to imitate a roman candle when smacked hard :D

By using T4 200mm, 175mm, 149, 125mm gun, Picric Acid I can burn a whole fleet with just ... CL. I fought against Krupt III armor and it took me ... 10s to burn a BB with concentrating fire. In fact, 200% burn chance is superior compare to others and for CL build, the ship is a living All or Nothing example because 3500 tons CL are expendable.

[Kuma]

The easiest and most sure way to rip through armour is with high explosive.

This is truth in the game as well as realistically.

A type 93 torpedo warhead contains 1080 lbs of shimose powder. (basically picric acid)
This torpedo can defeat the armour of any battleship ever made with sheer high explosive power. No armour penetration required.

Gunnery is quite the same. I have photographic evidence of a Tiger I (3.9 frontal armour) being penetrating by a Russian 203mm HE howitizer round. The HE round blew a hole straight through the armour plating.

So, if a 8 inch gun firing a HE round can blow past 4 inches of steel, imagine a 16 inch gun. HE rounds should be used for the majority of targets because it has the lowest risk of over-penetration and the ability to cause maximum damage. Firing a HE 16 inch shell at a destroyer will offer instant detonation and cause massive damage whilst a AP 16 in shell may pass straight through.

Remember, It would normally take 63 mm of STS armour to stop BB caliber fragments. Most smaller ships do not have this type of protection. So when a HE round explodes after ripping the outer armour apart, fragmentation can still seriously damage the interior of the ship similar to a way how AP shells burst in the interior of a ship.

AP shells are used when your HE cannot penetrate the armour or you need to move through water to hole an enemy battleship. The prime example of this would be the duel between BB-56 and Kirishima.

Kirishima’s original protection scheme was never based on projectiles with deep penetration capability. In 1914 all that was expected from an AP shell was
to punch a hole in the exterior plate. These projectiles exploded on impact using a very sensitive explosive filler of picric acid and a non-delay fuze. They posed little risk to the ship below the waterline as any shell would destroy itself on impact with the water. Thus in 1914 all major watertight compartments only went up to the middle deck which is located at the waterline.

http://navweaps.com/index_lundgren/Kirishima_Damage_Analysis.pdf

Look at those fantastic placement of 16 inch AP rounds by American gunnery.
Shell hit 16, 7, 6, and 19. I hope someone bought that gunnery officer a beer!

[Anavel Gato]

Originally posted by glythe:

[quote=Nitemares;4030222382922643152
When you make your ship you need to calculate how much you want to penetrate with the HE shell. If you build it wrong then it won't work on the intended target.

When you research more shell types for HE you have options that do more pen or less pen depending on what you need.

The problem with warfare and armor is that it is a continual evolution that changes yearly. Overall the AI is not quite "up to date" but even then most of the time I need to change my ships about every 5-10 years to make sure that I'm picking the correct options.

Also... unless they have changed something the best "firestarting" shell is incendiary.

Something to keep in mind is that if you have far enough "ahead" HE shells/guns you can just always pick the most penetrating option and if you build your ships well then those will work just fine.

According to history, I CAN MAKE PICRIC ACID I as I see fit, I don't even see how you block this from my access. And I also want to produce Picric Acid II or III if I research them as well. What's the problem? Picrid Acid I didn't disappear from history by 1920, did it?

Like I said, I found a way to use Picric Acid I and I want it to be available for all timeline, it's pretty much HISTORICAL ACCURATE though.

[jfoytek]

Originally posted by Anavel Gato:

According to history, I CAN MAKE PICRIC ACID I as I see fit, I don't even see how you block this from my access. And I also want to produce Picric Acid II or III if I research them as well. What's the problem? Picrid Acid I didn't disappear from history by 1920, did it?

Like I said, I found a way to use Picric Acid I and I want it to be available for all timeline, it's pretty much HISTORICAL ACCURATE though.

So Picric is still in the game, they did not remove it.... As for the effectiveness of HE it was needed to be toned down, and I think where we currently are is just about right....

The whole 2 Inch machine gun DD CL Meta destroying everything has been fixed....

Now you need to use 5 inch guns lol and well it feels a bit more realistic if you will...

[vanDyck]

You must remember that this games mixes in HE two types of shells:
-the "real" HE (nose fuze, high capacity, incendary) that explodes on contact and therefor cant penetrate any armor and was originally for damaging unarmored targets
-shells that are designt to explode directly after penetrating light armor (like base fuze etc.)
(+AP)

Atleast some navies used 3 ammo types per ship, "real" he, base fuzed shells against lightly armored targetes, and AP. (+some special like training ammo)