Access to earlier guns

[Panzerfanlol]

Title, can we have access to earlier guns than the ones we've unlocked please?
Alot of mounts just cant have guns because all I have unlocked are casemate turrets and no, for example, 2 inch guns on mounts. I'd rather have my ship filled with outdated 2 inchers than have no gun on that mount, especially when theyre good positions.
And it just makes your ship look nicer sometimes.

[hansandmg42]

Oh the hull is 1 month 0bselete ? sucks to be you we destroyed all the blueprints and factories to make it - UAD devs

[Panzerfanlol]

Originally posted by hansandmg42:

Oh the hull is 1 month 0bselete ? sucks to be you we destroyed all the blueprints and factories to make it - UAD devs

Lmao, I don't mind them auto making hulls obsolete now so much since we can refit old ships if you don't delete them, I just want access to my old weapons that very often are still on those old ships.
Its the worst when you have these old ships that you refit but you have to spend way more on refitting them because the new gun models dont fit where the old guns did

[hurepoix]

Despite I understand your point, I find irrealistic this demand. with such reasoning, we should still use mouth loading bronze gun. Or may be on the next tank general we will remove electronic to gain weight, and come back to the 75 mm gun sherman had because it is lighter and less cumbersome.
Historically secondary guns were often changed for new modern ones. Dev decision makes sense, and is historically correct. Of course it should not be automatic to have to change gun, but it is probably to keep the game homogeneous and simple.

There is a very simple solution if you want to keep old guns ; dont refit.

[Panzerfanlol]

Originally posted by hurepoix:

Despite I understand your point, I find irrealistic this demand. with such reasoning, we should still use mouth loading bronze gun. Or may be on the next tank general we will remove electronic to gain weight, and come back to the 75 mm gun sherman had because it is lighter and less cumbersome.
Historically secondary guns were often changed for new modern ones. Dev decision makes sense, and is historically correct. Of course it should not be automatic to have to change gun, but it is probably to keep the game homogeneous and simple.

There is a very simple solution if you want to keep old guns ; dont refit.

You literally don't have a choice with the refit, it would make sense to have to change their type (type 1,2,3,4 ) if you select the gun, deleted it and then went to replace it.

Its not like the old weapons get deleted from the game, they just become unavailable.
In the current beta branch with the new hulls almost all of the 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6 inch guns are exactly the same ugly casemates that look extremely unrealistic for a 1920s heavy or light cruiser never mind on a destroyer.
The Italians were using the "old" style of 2 inch guns on mounts with thin shields up until the 1940s, so were the Japanese.
You don't always NEED a state of the art turret with hydraulics and ammunition cranes for it to be a modern weapon, we still use the Oerlikon 20mm today, which is a gun that has been used since the interwar period.

[Sky RR]

Originally posted by hurepoix:

Despite I understand your point, I find irrealistic this demand. with such reasoning, we should still use mouth loading bronze gun. Or may be on the next tank general we will remove electronic to gain weight, and come back to the 75 mm gun sherman had because it is lighter and less cumbersome.
Historically secondary guns were often changed for new modern ones. Dev decision makes sense, and is historically correct. Of course it should not be automatic to have to change gun, but it is probably to keep the game homogeneous and simple.

There is a very simple solution if you want to keep old guns ; dont refit.

Woah now, Quit shoving words in other people's mouths. The OP wants to not be forced to scrap a ship because the game forces upgrades on it. There's no bronze cannons in game to even pretend to mount, Heck, you can't even use the ironclad weapons in the campaign so you're not even in the same ballpark.

And you can shove the "not historically accurate" part of your words back into your own mouth while you're at it.

Like, completely forgetting that ships like Oi (Kuma Class) which went though full conversions, were still mounting the same 14cm/50's from 1917?

Let's see there's USS Ward, 1918, who retained some of her 4in guns though a total conversion in 1942. This would literally be impossible to do in game, as the 4in for the US is replaced by a massive boxy affair that looks like the WW2 5in/38 So that's not historical at all.


HMS Vanguard, the finest british BB ever made and gorgeous to boot, was armed with the same turrets off HMS Courageous and Glorious. I mean literally the same turrets, when those two became carriers they kept the 15in guns in storage and stuffed them onto Vanguard in the 40's. Mind you I'll give the caveat here that these guns were significantly upgraded in capability , however they are the same "size" turret as far as this game would be concerned. This is something that actually IS represented in game with a few guns. Same model, better abilities, often heavier as well. (so really this just show's that being able to keep the older model of gun, but enhancing it's abilities during a refit should be a thing rather than auto upgrading it to the new model)


Just for HaHa's the Merchant Raider Pinguin's main armament was literally just pulled from he secondary battery of the Pre-dread Schlesien, which ya know...hopelessly out of date weapons for the 1940's. This wouldn't be doable in game either, even if we had a merchant raider hull cuz NOPE, no 6in guns in open back mounts for Germany then.....Just big bulky modern 6in turrets only, so hey, there's another inability to recreate history.

"don't refit" That's not what happened historically and you are likely being ignorant of that on purpose or you literally know nothing about what you pretend to argue.

Just a few examples, but poke around in conways, navsource or heck even wikipedia...doesn't take a lot of looking around to see that you'r interpenetration of reality doesn't line up with history.

Ships often kept their old guns, even when new ones were made.

Ships subsystesm, such as towers, electronics, bulging, were capable of being upgraded without touching the main armament.

Ships could be completely rebuilt in purpose and appearance, but still hold onto their old guns.

Ships could receive old guns off other ships/stockpiles even if newer/better ones existed.

this isn't opinion, it's just what could historically happened.

[hurepoix]

Originally posted by Struggle Sausage:

The OP wants to not be forced to scrap a ship because the game forces upgrades on it.

Nobody is forced to scrap ships. And if people want to keep old guns, it is very easy ; dont refit.

[Hidden Gunman]

Originally posted by hurepoix:

Originally posted by Struggle Sausage:

The OP wants to not be forced to scrap a ship because the game forces upgrades on it.

Nobody is forced to scrap ships. And if people want to keep old guns, it is very easy ; dont refit.

Until ypu only want to put sonar or radar or a radio on them, then you are screwed.

The useful life of light ships is far more than the battlewagons, and they would do good service filling in numbers for asw or escort work, if you can add those goodies.

[hurepoix]

I doubt devs dont know that, like I doubt it is like that to annoy peoples. I think, like I said it it is like that, because it s probably too complicate to allows such option and keep game simple and homogeneous (even it is not from player point of view)

And you are not screwed if you really need to refit, you just have to deal with a problem and have to solve it. I do it all the time, and usually it is for my early light cruisers (from 1895 to 1920) I have to make uneasy balance choice.

Also ask to keep old guns is sometime a bit hypocrite. I feel that what most people want, is rather modern gun in old turrets, or for 2'' to 5'' guns ; to have new guns in shielded version rather than turreted one (or better have the choice between the 2)

For DD you have 2 problem to deal with ; new guns that usually are more cumbersome, and new torp launcher and new torpedoes which are also heavier and need more space.

It is not the end of the world to deal with that. often it end with ; I had 4 guns and now I had only 3.

[Panzerfanlol]

Originally posted by hurepoix:

Originally posted by Struggle Sausage:

The OP wants to not be forced to scrap a ship because the game forces upgrades on it.

Nobody is forced to scrap ships. And if people want to keep old guns, it is very easy ; dont refit.

Small ships such as CLs and DDs need radars or better torpedo range to survive, you can't just keep them as picket ships.
And yes I'll admit that you're not FORCED to scrap ships, you just end up paying way more than you need to in order to move the superstructure and other things in order to make space for the newer guns

[hbrdly]

Mk2 single barrel small guns for larger ships definitely seem too large and modern given that they are usually available mid 1890s. Its also odd that on the small ships, the same gun sizes still have small versions without the turret.

Refits are in general far too cheap and the calculation of time is mainly based on tonnage change, which means it takes longer to refit if you change armour type, UNLESS you also add some more range, or bigger guns, etc, to bring the overall displacement back to the original.

+1 for making choice of whether the guns mk is upgraded optional when you refit. Plus if you choose to do so, it should have serious cost particularly for a large gun. Maybe not in time (ideally you'd build your new turret before drydocking the ship, after all) but in dollars.

[Sky RR]

+

Originally posted by hurepoix:

Originally posted by Struggle Sausage:

The OP wants to not be forced to scrap a ship because the game forces upgrades on it.

Nobody is forced to scrap ships. And if people want to keep old guns, it is very easy ; dont refit.

Originally posted by hurepoix:

I m not that surprised you dodged the only question I wished you answered. ;-)

"Historically accurate" you say, but only when it's convenient to your argument.

Laser focusing on one phrase, setting it up, and knocking it down while ignoring all other bits of information. It's a classic Strawman argument.


Anyone reading this thread go back a page and read Wyrm's thread "Let us use older marks of guns"

https://steamcommunity.com/app/1069660/discussions/0/3788129296185765336/

They're there too with the same argument. They're not here to debate, just shout their opinion at you and be snarky (which I'll be fair. I like being snarky and am totally here for that too, But also to drop some facts) Which hurepoix doesn't have. Just an opinion that they can't justify.


Ships historically can be refit without changing turrets, anything else you say is just a roundabout way of you going "yeah but I don't like it so no one else should have fun"

Take your weaksauce elsewhere

[hurepoix]

Originally posted by Struggle Sausage:

Just an opinion that they can't justify.

Just because you pick up element that are convinient to you a forget the other.

1) people dont want to keep older older guns. It is an hypocrital excuse to have an easier game, on a game alredady so easy you can loose.

What really want people is modern gun that dont take more space than older one, and that s all. At best the would like for exemple to have new gun shielded instead of turreted, or have the choice between the two.

2) Of course historically a ship can be reffited without changing secondary guns with more modern ones, but usually it was done when it was possible, and it make sense.

3) In my opinion you will have to seat on your frustration. I expect it will not change (even It would be convinient for me too). There is probably, imo, between this feature a tech reason identical to the one that make new tech discovered are apply in old ships making your blueprint constantly in overweight a few month after your made it. Keep game mecanic simple an homogeneous (like said ; even if it is not from player point of view)

Calm your hate, you will make a stroke ;-) especially you will eat new guns on refit for a while ;-)

[Panzerfanlol]

Tbh literally all they have to do is use the same old model and change the stats and keep it in the same folder as 2inch/3inch/4inch(whichever) and everyone would be happy.