Suggestions for countering AI torpedo spam?

[sandman2575]

If you've played the Campaign, then you are familiar with the AI's great love of building cheap light cruisers crammed with as many torpedo launchers as possible (and, realistically, as many launchers as is impossible...)

And you are familiar with the AI's tactic of flooding the battle zone with torpedos in a way that's *very* difficult for the human player to handle if they have anything like a large group of ships to manage. Yes, you can use -- and have to use -- the 'auto-avoid' torps feature, but this scatters your formations to hell, as 'avoid torps' apparently means: sail 15 km in any direction as long as it's breaking formation with the lead ship.

The obvious thing, and the thing I do, is to reply in kind. I build plent of CLs and DDs with torp launchers and I similarly flood the initial stages of the battle with torps. Yet the AI manages to dodge these with miraculous ease, while also appearing to have sniper accurancy that my own ships very definitely do not have.

In late stages of campaign, this gets pretty effing tedious to deal with. Anyone have suggestions for effective counters to this?

[Silence Suzuka]

I got the similar feeling.

My way for countering this is have a small (thus expensible) ship to go ahead, then the AI will likely throw a lot of torpedo on it while my main fleet is at the other direction. If they don't, then I turn my main fleet away from it and use guns to remove them from far.

[vanDyck]

0. have ships that are resistant to torp damage (maneuverability, torp protection, at least double hull, anti- flood - increased bulkheads)
1. have a fast and maneuverable scouting force ahead to see where torp equipped ships are (and fight them or lure them to torp the scouts and evade)
2. if i know my main fleet maybe in range, turn often enought at least 90-180 degrees. (Its very pleasent to see dozends of torps running to the spot where you would have been...^^)

[NT_Dave]

The comments below are how I try to deal with AI fleets in the 1930s-40s era.

The AI's trick to avoiding torps and also preventing launches is to have the entire fleet reverse course and zig-zag rapidly in a way which is impossible for human players to duplicate. This is combined with their superior accuracy to make battles more difficult.

My system is to have a navy where 60-70% are DDs and CLs. I send them forward and fire using "Aggressive" and aim at ships deep within the AI formation. This maximizes their retreat.

At the same time, my BBs, CAs, and CL are likewise blasting away at the formation in general, targeting (where possible) any cluster of enemy. In a large battle, the AI does cluster and this allows overs and unders to hit things. I also concentrate fire on enemy CLs as they have the most torps. My CA and CL designs are geared toward destroying DDs and CLs. I use 9.2" guns on my CAs and 6.5" on the CLs with both having lots of triple 3.9" secondary guns, which I've found to effectively shread DDs.

I try very hard to keep the BBs and CAs out of torpedo range and concentrate on avoiding incoming torps by my DDs and CLs. I've learned that no more than three ships (preferably pairs) should be in each squadron, as this allows them to turn away quickly to avoid incoming.

As I mentioned, the AI turns and zig-zags to avoid torps. Because of the large number of DDs firing, their retreat continues for some time. If I'm lucky, I'll hit one ship per 10+ torps fired. Because of the long turn-away, my DDs can retreat after firing and be out of effective enemy gun range. This gives them time to reload.

Once the the AI returns to battle, the heavy ships have destroyed easily a dozen ships. I launch another DD torp attack and when the enemy retreats again, order all my ships to retreat as well. The timer goes off and I call it a day. Usually I don't lose any of my ships and sink 5,000+ points of the AI.

The key is don't be greedy. Chew them up bit by bit. In my current war with Japan in 1947, I have over 50K points and he has less than 5K. BTW Minelayer Subs are very good against Japan. Surround the island and watch his shipyards get clogged up with repairs!

[sandman2575]

I appreciate all the feedback -- thanks --

@NT_Dave -- these are very interesting tactics that I will give a try. I'm curious about the gun calibers you use: 9.2" mains for CA, 6.5" mains for CL w/ 3.9" secondaries. Do you modify barrel length on any of these? I've tended to have higher calibers on my CAs & CLs -- in the 1930s, my CAs are usually sporting at least 11" mains and CLs something in the 7.4-7.8" range.

[the Baron]

Originally posted by sandman2575:

Anyone have suggestions for effective counters to this?

There is one very simple method. A bait.

One important thing to know about the AI when we are talking about torpedoes, is that the AI will treat any target as equal, the only thing it matters is what is the nearest target. Knowing this becomes very easy to exploit the poor AI logic against them.

To give you a practical example to make it easier to understand. Let's say your capital ships are sailing from east to west, what you want is to use a bait to force the AI to spend all the torpedoes to the east. So you send a small, fast ship to get close to the AI in the area to bait them to launch the torpedoes far away from your capital ships.

Simple as that.

[NT_Dave]

Originally posted by sandman2575:

I appreciate all the feedback -- thanks --

@NT_Dave -- these are very interesting tactics that I will give a try. I'm curiouys about the gun calibers you use: 9.2" mains for CA, 6.5" mains for CL w/ 3.9" secondaries. Do you modify barrel length on any of these? I've tended to have higher calibers on my CAs & CLs -- in the 1930s, my CAs are usually sporting at least 11" mains and CLs something in the 7.4-7.8" range.

I max out the barrel length as much as possible. It definitely improves accuracy. I have some older BCs which 11.9 and 12.5 guns with barrel length in the 60 caliber length. They are fantastic guns which hit regularly at max ranges, real CA killers.

I like 9" class guns for the quicker reloading and they are hard-hitting. The weight saved goes into armor, anti-torp, and speed. My CAs usually are at 34-35 kts and my CLs are 36-37 kts. Helps them keep up with the DDs. On some of the latest CAs, I've added 4.1 double mounts.

The 3.9 triple barrel is a real DD killer. 4-5 of them fire so quickly that the points add up really fast. Firing incendiaries help as well, but after dozens of hits its usually flooding which does them in.

[Aries]

Torpedo spam can be bad. How about this though. I just found this out after I had 12 ships damaged by something. The just were all damaged and were scattered in the North Sea, Bay of Biscay, N Atlantic and Mediterranean. IDK what because I got no combat or notice pop ups. I am guessing its the one SM sub I saw floating in the channel.

The SM = Super Minelayer sub has a mine field radius of 900 kilometers according to the sub stats. Which is a 636,173 square kilometers area. These subs lay only 60 mines. I am not that smart but I tried to figure it out.
That is about one mine per 10,000 square kilometers if i have that right. Well, my ships seem to have found them.

[Silence Suzuka]

Originally posted by Aries:

Torpedo spam can be bad. How about this though. I just found this out after I had 12 ships damaged by something. The just were all damaged and were scattered in the North Sea, Bay of Biscay, N Atlantic and Mediterranean. IDK what because I got no combat or notice pop ups. I am guessing its the one SM sub I saw floating in the channel.

The SM = Super Minelayer sub has a mine field radius of 900 kilometers according to the sub stats. Which is a 636,173 square kilometers area. These subs lay only 60 mines. I am not that smart but I tried to figure it out.
That is about one mine per 10,000 square kilometers if i have that right. Well, my ships seem to have found them.

I think it means it will carry and deploy 60 mines every time, but say it go out 2 times a month, then there is 120 mine deployed each month each sub.

[Aries]

Originally posted by Silence Suzuka:

I think it means it will carry and deploy 60 mines every time, but say it go out 2 times a month, then there is 120 mine deployed each month each sub.

At sea minefields follow a sub's moves to an area. It will deploy it's mines which are temporary, remaining only as long as the sub is on station.
First. A sub would have no time to deploy a 600,000 square kilometer minefield IRL I am guessing.
Second, subs only deploy the max amount of mines stated in game, so if it carries 60 mines, it only deploys 60 mines. Port based mine layers that have 100 mines only drop 100 mines, I checked in game.

The point being, a minefield radius it generates grows to a max, according to the tech. The SM sub has a 900km RADIUS. Think of the odds of hitting one of 60 mines laid out over the entire North Sea area IRL. The logic is not here with the huge radius since mines field are laid in specific areas? Maybe I am wrong here, I guess they could just dump a mine here then travel 100km and drop another repeat it until they crisscross the entire North Sea.

Yet another great game idea that doesn't makes sense, at least to me.

[Hidden Gunman]

Engage at long range and screen.

[Cool Douche]

Playing through a British save right now. My battleships always have at least one 30+ knot battlecruiser with them. I send it ahead of the main force, and the moment the enemy formation is detected my battleships turn hard right to unmask all their batteries, while my battlecruiser turns about 45 degrees to the left and continues to close. Since it’s closer, it draws a majority of the torpedo fire, and the moment I detect the first torpedo I have the battlecruiser reverse course 180 degrees. Since it’s a single ship, I don’t have to worry about breaking formation with my larger capital ships.

I also prioritize targeting any vessels coming towards my formation. Normally, you’ll see the AI either then away from you if outmatched, or steam opposite your course so their capital ships can exchange fire with yours. In either scenario, the AI will send a handful of smaller escorts across the no man’s land to try to launch torpedo attacks. I always prioritize these ships for targeting.

I avoid assigning any escorts to screening duties, as I feel the screening command just leads to useless losses. Normally I have my escorts either retreat (if they’re optimized for minesweeping or ASW duties) or I have them set to follow the capital ships. This also allows for my destroyers and CLs to launch their own torpedo attacks on anything steaming out to meet us.

Finally, the 8” secondaries on battleships are great if you have the tonnage to spare. They have great accuracy and can easily turn back a wave of smaller ships. Hope this helps!

[Boatcommando]

Originally posted by glythe:

You're going to hate my answer but a lot of dealing with torpedo design is in the fleet design and research details. I also move most of my ships manually. Combine this with just knowing the enemy is about to fire and you just adjust course frequently. Get some ideas from the Hunt for Red October.

I hate your answer.

Yes I'm aware of good ASW tech and sonar. So before you go further, here are few catch.

1. I'm not going to talk about spotting distance (when you actually see a torp). I'm talking about what happened after you see one. Like when game already show you a torp wake.
2. I'm talking about fleet battle. Where you have to manage load of ships. Like 4+ ships, on multiple front all at one. Yes, I almost never eat a torp when I have to manage 1 or 2 ships. And even I do, it's OK because I know I did something wrong.

The problem with torp is it is very hard to notice torpedo due to bad UI. Torp's wake look quite similar to wave and very hard to spot, even if you are able to spot, it is very hard to track due to distance torps can travel/time it take to travel. And if you want to track a torp. you have to constantly monitored it. Because if I look somewhere else, I have to spent minutes try to regain visual on that torp. Because it's hard to spot and there is no visual reference (like a rock or a tree) in the sea. And I'm not going to sit and watch 1 torp travelling for 10 minutes while 10 more enemy torps are being fired or my ships doing something stupid. Which it will inevitably do.

This problem will become worst as the game progress, as the torp gets longer range and persist on the battle for longer time (Electric torp is annoy not because you sonar can't detect them, it's annoy because bad UI + it persist on a battlefield for a long long time)

Not to mention, on many occasion, game just won't tell you there are incoming torps. Sonar is able to spot, it show the wake, but there is no notify in the activity log on the bottom left nor yellow "!" on the incoming torp.

I think you can see the problem. In a fleet battle...
1. I have to manage the position of my battle line
2. I have to babysit 10+ ships at the same time to prevent it doing something stupid
3. I have to try fixing the bug where ship won't respond to command or turret get stuck or ship won't fire or won't fire at the target I ordered.
4. I have to fight bad UI, shuffling ships between formation.

It's a lot of tasks at hand. You add additional task of monitoring all torps at all time with a bad UI, and it just cross the line.

It get worst because...
1. AI in ship formation is very stupid. You have no idea how many times it just throws itself into a torp instead of evading it. Yes, I already turn torp evasion on. It just confused and turn into torp or just run away, deserting the fight.
2. Due to how long the torp persist on the battlefield and bad UI, sometimes your DDs and CLs on the front manage to dodge it. But 10 minutes later, it hit the Capital ship in the back. You can't turn automatic torp evasion on to help you either, because AI is stupid.

All this made getting hit by a torp like getting punished for something that isn't your fault. Which is very frustrating.

Seeing AI fleet managed to dodge your torp with ease. Like firing tons of torps into dense AI fleet with very bad torp detection ability and all ships manage to Tokyodrift to avoid all your torps with extreme precision, while AI on your ship actively try to turn itself into one just to troll you, really make you feel frustrated that torp mechanics just works against you. Instead of making you fun or challenged.

[Boatcommando]

Originally posted by glythe:

I am 100% in agreement with you. It might have gotten eaten as it was likely part of a feedback for patch XYZ thread but I made posts about a year ago saying : hey can we have spotted torpedoes be a different color or have some kind of alert?

I posted a thread of that in the general discussion too. But well, this is a dying game. Put it bluntly, dev about to abandon it. And we still got lots of more important things needed to be sorted out. Torp issue is just so far down the list I don't think they will ever come to or do anything about it.

I already try a screen ship tactic. But in the later era, even with screen ship, electric torp can still reached your main force. So it's back to handle with bad UI and bad AI.

Maybe next time I'll try a modified screen ship tactic. Send main force away, use one ship to bait all torps in the world until they run out of torps. Then let main fleet swing back in.

[Lucky]

Best protection from the torpedo is speed. If your ship is faster than the torpedo and moves even slightly away than enemy, its torpedoes will not have the firing solution even at the very close range. And will not fire. Simply do not move towards the enemy. If your ship is slower than torpedoes this only means that you need to be moving at steeper angle away. So the best way to avoid the torpedoes is to not move towards its carriers.

This was the basics.

Now for the actual gameplay.

If you start the campaign early, AI will not research and field 40+ knot standard torpedoes until the very last stages of the game. Tnigs like oxygen or electrical torps will be a thing straight from a fairy tale.

So wanna remove long range torpedo spam from the game? Start early. Even 1910 is early enough for any practical purposes.

Overshots.

If fired some of the torps will make to ranges about twice its nominal. This way even the 5-6 km torps will be a random threat at 10-12 km range. This is a thing when AI already have dread era tech and you have not yet transitioned into modern cruiser era so your capitals are the only ships what have long range detection and everything else will have to move in closer to locate anything in this risking being located themselves by the enemy dds in the head-to-head situation resulting in torpedo launches.

Well. The easiest way to deal with it is to turn your squadron away from the enemy right at the start and take the fight while running away at the speed what allows the enemy to slowly catch up to your rear guard. Yes. As in back to the basics.