USS Constitution Available Cannons...

[-DDSSTT-]

The USS Constitution was armed with 30x 24-pounder long gun on the Gun Deck and 20x 32-pounder carronade on the Spar Deck historically, but currently in game the largest carronades that can be mounted in campaign and custom battles on the Spar Deck are the 18 PDR EIC Pattern. Will we every be able to use historical load outs?

[Wolves in the Throne Room]

She actually ran 42 carronades on the spar deck on two cruises, but throughout the rest of her career, yes, she had 32's.
There was a massive debate on the NA forums years ago about this, with a lot of the European based players being uninformed haters and not wanting the Constitution to have the option for 42's. The debate was settled with overwhelming historical proof from multiple contemporary sources including the Constitution Museum and the US Navy Historical Office. So it must be an unintended mistake to not let her run 32's or 42's.
F11 in game and report it as a bug.

[Wolves in the Throne Room]

Also her two sister ships, the USS United States and the USS President, both carried 42lb carronades on their spar decks for their careers, the President being slightly smaller than the other two, but still able to run 42's up top.

[Wolves in the Throne Room]

STILL. NOT. FIXED.

[Wolves in the Throne Room]

BUMP

[Wolves in the Throne Room]

When the USS President (a sister ship to the Constitution and the United States) was captured by the British squadron, she was carry 42lb carronades.

Sort this please.

[watcherzero]

Since USS President was almost entirely defeated by a single 18 pounder stern gun it didnt do her much good.

[Dustbuhny]

BUMP

[Wolves in the Throne Room]

Originally posted by watcherzero:

Since USS President was almost entirely defeated by a single 18 pounder stern gun it didnt do her much good.

Haha, boy am I going to have fun with you, let me grab my notes...

[Wolves in the Throne Room]

The Enduring myth of the 'Endymion capturing the USS President', it was in fact a lucky escape by the Endymion, being rescued by 2 British frigates and a 74.

For the lazy kids there is a TDLR at the bottom, but it is an enjoyable story and recommended you read it, be you a fan of the British or the Americans

"On the 14th of January a severe snow-storm came on and blew the (British - ed) squadron off the coast. Next day it moderated, and the ships stood off to the northwest to get into the track which they supposed the Americans would take if they attempted to put out in the storm.

Singularly enough, at the instant of arriving at the intended point, an hour before daylight on the 15th, Sandy Hook bearing W. N. W. 15 leagues, a ship was made out, on the Majestic's weather-bow, standing S.E.

This ship was the unlucky President. On the evening of the 14th she had left her consorts at anchor, and put out to sea in the gale. But by a mistake of the pilots who were to place boats to beacon the passage the frigate struck on the bar, where she beat heavily for an hour and a half, springing her masts and becoming very much hogged and twisted.

(In fact she had broken her keel in 3 places and was hogging and twisted severely)

Owing to the severity of her injuries the President would have put back to port, but was prevented by the westerly gale.

Accordingly, Decatur steered at first along Long Island, then shaped his course to the S. E., and in the dark ran into the British squadron, which, but for his unfortunate accident, he would thus have escaped."


"At daylight, the President (53 guns, broadside weight 816 lbs), which had hauled up and passed to the northward of her opponents, found herself with the Majestic (74 gun) and Endymion (47 guns, broadside weight 641 lbs)) astern, the Pomone (38 guns) on the port, and the Tenedos (38 guns) on the starboard quarter."

"The chase now became very interesting. During the early part of the day, while the wind was still strong, the Majestic led the Endymion and fired occasionally at the President, but without effect.

"In the afternoon, the wind coming out light and baffling, the Endymion left the Majestic behind, and, owing to the Presidents disabled state and the amount of water she made in consequence of the injuries received while on the bar, gained rapidly on her, although she lightened ship and did everything else that was possible to improve her sailing.

But a shift of wind helped the Endymion,and the latter was able at about 2.30, to begin skirmishing with her bow-chasers, answered by the stern-chasers of the President.

At 5.30 the Endymion began close action, within half point-blank shot on the Presidents starboard quarter, where not a gun of the latter could bear.The President continued in the same course, steering east by north, the wind being northwest, expecting the Endymion soon to come up abeam; but the latter warily kept her position by yawing, so as not to close."

(Being of much weaker scantling and wood (Fir vs Live Oak) and lighter gunned, she was not about to go broadside to broadside with the President, a sister ship to the Constitution and the United States, all three ships being built of a scantling stronger than the latest class of British 74's and carrying over 50 guns each)

"At 6.00 the President kept off, heading to the south, and the two adversaries ran abreast, the Americans using the starboard and the British the port batteries." Decatur tried to close with his antagonist, but whenever he hauled nearer to the latter she hauled off' and being the swiftest ship (dues to the President's severe sandbar induced injuries) could of course evade him; so he was reduced to the necessity of trying to throw her out of the combat by dismantling her."


"So the President, with her keel broken in 3 places, her masts twisted, taking on water, damage all taken while aground on a sandbar due to mistakes by the harbour pilots in their small guide boats, and now out to sea and fleeing from a British squadron, was finally engaging the Endymion on equal terms and the fight thus did last long.

President began firing at her rigging and succeeded in completely disabling her where she fell astern and then began the President's fire on her hull at this time and after began an attempt to board her, since she had completely ceased firing at the President."

"The Endymion would have been captured at this moment had not the Pomone and her consorts appeared, forcing the President to flee and she had no choice but to show her stern directly to the Endymion’s broadside, but she did not fire, being so badly beaten.

According to the log of the Pomone, from whose President's casualties mostly came after she was surrounded by the rest of the squadron, the Endymion did not rejoin the squadron till some 6 hours after her tangle with the big American, so damaged was her rigging and hull and demoralized were her crew, the President however was yet lightly injured when their (Pomone, Majestic, Tenedos) portion of the engagement began."

Thus three hours afterward, at 10, "the Pomone caught up with the President, and luffing to port gave her the starboard broadside; the Tenedos being two cables'length's distance astern, taking up a raking position. The Pomone poured in another broadside, within musket shot, when the President surrendered and was taken possession of by Capt. Parker of the Tenedos. A considerable number of the President's people were killed by these two last broadsides. The Endymion was at this time out of sight astern' beaten and unable to move for a full three hours after the end of the chase, six hours since the President had left her a wreck.

TLDR:

1: The USS President had been damaged by being stuck on a sandbar for 3 hours in a blowing snowstorm and her keel was broken in 3 places, her masts were sprung and she was severely hogged and twisted.

2: She could not reenter port for what would have been months of repairs because of the gale, she put to seas and was pursued by 4 British ships, the Majestic (74 gun) and Endymion (47 guns) the Pomone (38 guns) and the Tenedos (38 guns)

3: Even in her severely disabled state only the Endymion could catch her, and since the President was unable to turn to bring her guns to bear, without dooming herself to being caught by the rest of the squadron, the Endymion was able yaw away to fire her broadside into the rear quarter of the President for 30 minutes unanswered.

4: The wind shifted and the President was able to bring herself parallel with the Endymion and gave her a beating in her hull and wrecked her rigging and spars such that she fell away from the President's fire

5. The President closed to the un-firing, stationary Endymion and was about to board her to take her a prize when the rest of the British squadron appeared in the nick of time. Had the President initiated boarding, the squadron would have been upon her before she could have repaired the Endymion and made away with her prize

6. The Pomone and Tenedos caught up to her within 3 hours and with one on her broadside and another in a raking stern position and the 74 gun Majestic bearing down, the President received several broadsides before the inevitable surrender. She struck early to avoid pointless loss of life

7. So rather than the HMS Endymion capturing the USS President (which is a British myth perpetuated by people who simply don't know the truth, or worse lie), the Endymion was beaten into silence and would have been taken a prize by a severely weather/sandbar damaged President had she not been rescued by the 3 other British ships

8. The Endymion was so badly beaten that she did not rejoin the squadron for another 6 hours

But thanks for trying, I got a good laugh out of that comment of: 'Since USS President was almost entirely defeated by a single 18 pounder stern gun it didnt do her much good', as did everyone else I sent that screenshot to ;)

Moral of the story, give the US super-frigates the ability to mount 32lbers and 42lbers on the spar deck, as they actually did.

The President was carrying the 42's up top in this fight and she was slightly smaller by a few tons than her two sisters.

[Schoenveter]

Originally posted by Wolves in the Throne Room:

''''''''''

I've put the kettle on, you fancy a cup of tea m'lord?

[watcherzero]

You neglected to mention that the reason the other ships broke off the pursuit of the President was because they were looking for the rest of the ships in her squadron.
At 7:58 the President struck her colours lighting a lantern in her rigging. Endymion ceased fire and began repairing her rigging.
At 8:30 The President which had been sat with her sails down and not firing began to flee, the Endymion could not pursue as her rigging had been removed for repair.
At 8:52 The Endymion finished repairing her rigging and set off in pursuit of the President again.
At 9:05 Pomone and Tenedos came along side the president and both unleashed a broadside, the commodore struck his colours again. When boarded he complained about being fired upon saying that he had already surrendered to the Endymion.

That account is from the Chaplain of the President.

Endymion suffered 11 killed and 14 wounded.
President according to the US admirality casualty list suffered 24 killed and 55 wounded in the fight with Endymion.

[Wolves in the Throne Room]

What happened to: "Since USS President was almost entirely defeated by a single 18 pounder stern gun it didnt do her much good."

Eh?

Changing the subject and making up timelines now? I got you.

First of all, besides the hilarious lie you first stated, even the oft-repeated British myth of: 'The Endymion captured the President' is a lie that says more about the desperation of the liars to claw at some semblance of victory in a war at sea that forever ended British superiority than anything else.

It is spread knowingly and unknowingly and it grows some new aspect at every telling, this time a brand new timeline haha. Oh and the 'entirely defeated by a single 18 pounder stern gun' lol, the one gun the Endymion never fired

British evolving claim part two: 'Well the Endymion was present when the President surrendered.'
Also False.

Your timeline is pretty hilarious, did you just make that up? Must've been the nuclear powered ships that the British had secretly developed in 1799 haha. Or did you rely on wikipedia and its notoriously wrong articles?
I'll address that in a minute.

It hardly matters why the Pomone (not 'the other ships' -just making stuff up again or wikipedia?) stood off to chase the Tenedos for a bit as Capt. Hayes did not recognize one of his own ships.

This had no bearing on the outcome or the events as the wind had changed from strong -allowing the Majestic and Pomone to stay with the Endymion- to light and baffling -where the others fell off and the Endymion gained on the hogged, twisted and limping big American.

The fact remains that the last shot fired between the President and the Endymion was in the manner of two broadsides by the President, in which the majority of the killed (a number of sources on the Pomone say 25 were killed on the Endymion) occurred.

After those broadsides the Endymion ceased all activity, she was beaten. As the President approached to board her, the Endymion was in a state of defeat and only later was the claim of a light seen in the rigging of the President was a 'sign of surrender' which was actually just an excuse for the Endymion captain and crew to use to hide from the fact that they had been beaten.

If she was not so beaten and was merely reparing rigging, just as the President was making repairs, then when she saw the President start to flee as the rest of the British squadron appeared, her broadside was square on to the President's stern and she would have fired from that devastating position. As I described in my first post.

The Endymion would absolutely have raked the President from stern to bow had she been able, no doubt about it, but she wasn't able, she was defeated and the President sailed away with her stern in the Endymion's broadside range for twenty minutes and not a shot was fired.

Had the British squadron not appeared at that moment, the Endymion would have been captured. The British knew it and the President knew it.

I don't know why you seem so ashamed and so desperate to pretend otherwise, the President was a stronger ship with more crew and like all American ships during every engagement with British ships during the War of 1812, from sloops to these big frigates, fired 3 broadsides to every 2 of the British and were much, much more accurate. This is attested to in the accounts and logs of every engagement. The Endymion only allowed herself to get one on one with the President because they could tell she was severely damaged.

Wounded tigers aren't to be messed with as the Endymion found out.

By the timeline of President, the Endymion, and the Pomone we have:

During the early part of the day, the Majestic fired at the President's from behind.

At 2:30 pm the Endymion began firing its bow-chasers at the President.

At 5:30 pm the Endymion "began close action, within half point-blank shot on the President's starboard quarter, where not a gun from the latter could bear" This is the period in which the Endymion inflicted the most casualties, against a defenseless President on her rear quarter.

(Had it just been these two frigates at sea and not a 74 and two 38's close behind, the Endymion would have ended up like the Macedonian, the frigate Stephen Decatur shot to a wreck and sank without receiving a scratch himself while captaining the United States. However the Endymion would never have dared sail toward the President had she not been with her squadron)

At 6:00 pm, the President headed south and the two ships ran abreast, the President firing the starboard broadside and the Endymion the port. Decatur tried to close with his opponent, but she hauled away each time. The Endymion would have suffered terribly from the President's 42lb carronades, so she remained out of their prime range.

By 8:00 pm the Endymion was stationary and did not attempt to fire at the President and she turned away from her boarding attempt to flee the remainder of the squadron. She had at least 25 killed at that point and the number of 11 killed is an outright falsehood.

The British Admiralty lists are notoriously as reliable as a CNN story on Trump, designed not for historical record, but for the management of British glory.

Three hours later at 11:00 pm (where the hell did you get 9pm lol) the Pomone and Tenedos caught up with the President and the former luffed to port gave her starboard broadsides, while the Tenedos took up a raking position while the Pomone poured in another broadside.

(Literally everything you have written is wrong)

At around 11:30 pm the President surrendered to the Tenedos. The Endymion was still out of sight and was not rejoined with her squadron until 3:00 am.

The prize money was not given to the Endymion, but divided among the whole squadron.

According to Chaplain Henry Robinson's deposition before Admiralty Court in Bermuda, the majority of the President's casualties occurred from those last two broadsides of the Pomone.

Many statements by later British naval historians still rely on the gossip that came out of the Bermuda Register during the period after the fight. It was all officially retracted, but that hasn't stopped poor history writing.

So tell us more about that lone 18lb stern gun victory....

[Goose Green]

@watcherzero Look I'm British myself and would debate for my nation and her ships too, but only when warranted and only with good sources.

You're out of your depth with this lad, I know you weren't expecting anyone to challenge your 'single eighteen pounder stern gun' comment, but you got got big time geezer

[Rogalas Dorn]

It's almost like a game that prioritizes realism over fun is played by a bunch of history buffs, and they would know if you just started making ♥♥♥♥ up.

[watcherzero]

You can believe in the american myth of a robbed victory perpetrated by Decateur if you want. As a good academic Im sticking with the primary source of someone who was actually on the USS President and has no bias in the telling as he was on the opposite side. M. Bowie the Chaplain as quoted by A.D. Lambert in his book The Challenge.