Controls are awful ... here's how to improve them.

[moira.lachesis]

I haven't tested a game controller, probably works better. But keyboard/mouse is unusable.

1. Throttle. You can assign keys for throttle+ and throttle-, so please make them do that. Holding throttle+ all the time for thrust and no control over the amount is unusable.
2. Mouse. A mouse is no control stick. You can't make the user keep moving it just to maintain attitude. Instead, ship must maintain attitude on its own* when the mouse is not moving. This may be a bit unrealistic but it's the only way to make mouse steer useable.

*) EDIT: this sounds like more than I meant. To be more precise: mouse should work like a yoke, position controls force. So if external forces are constant, there should not be any need to move the mouse. ATM the game has no concept of mouse position and only reacts to movement, so you have to keep brushing the mouse pad constantly just to get a steady counter force.

[SigilFey]

While I do think there are some things that could be done a bit better, I don't think the game is really intended for M+K flight. The design is really HOTAS-based -- and it can be really challenging to pull off fine maneuvers even with a good stick and throttle.

Trouble is, making it work well with M+K would require the whole flight model to essentially be redesigned to include automatic assists for lots of things. There just isn't enough precision control period with digital input. (When playing the demo, I was even having smooth landings completely borked because there was no analog rudder control. Having that in the full version is loads better.)

In the meantime:

1.) Try assigning your mouse wheel as your throttle axis. That might do the trick for now.

2.) Of course the user has to constantly maintain fine adjustments. The whole point of the game is hands-on piloting! All that fancy auto-pilot and trim stuff with modern aircraft is useful, but all pilots will know how to manually keep an aircraft level in different flight conditions. And that...is definitely a full-time job.

[Knsgf]

Originally posted by vincent.gabriel:

1. Throttle. You can assign keys for throttle+ and throttle-, so please make them do that. Holding throttle+ all the time for thrust and no control over the amount is unusable.

Hold V to open radial meanu, then click Thrust Lock. This allows finer control over throttle.

Originally posted by SigilFey:

2.) Of course the user has to constantly maintain fine adjustments. The whole point of the game is hands-on piloting! All that fancy auto-pilot and trim stuff with modern aircraft is useful, but all pilots will know how to manually keep an aircraft level in different flight conditions. And that...is definitely a full-time job.

Sadly, instrumentation and controls are barely adequate even with controller. The landing camera is virtually useless due to lack of pitch and roll ladders as wel as altimeter, VS and velocity vector. RCS translation is turned off at low altitudes for no good reason.

[moira.lachesis]

Originally posted by SigilFey:

I don't think the game is really intended for M+K flight.

I agree, yet that doesn't change that M+K is poor and can be improved, of course.

Originally posted by SigilFey:

Trouble is, making it work well with M+K would require the whole flight model to essentially be redesigned to include automatic assists

The way I worded it, yes. However, I actually only meant better controls, see below.

but all pilots will know how to manually keep an aircraft level in different flight conditions.

I completely agree, and I actually don't want that taken away. But the way it is now, it's like force = mouse speed. Instead it should be force = mouse position. In a (real) aircraft, you only adjust the yoke position to counter the external forces, and as long as those stay the same, you don't have to do anything. The way the game is now, is like you would manually control a reaction wheel; to get a steady roll (counter-)force you need to keep moving the mouse at constant speed.

Also speaking of trim ... their are no controls for trim. AT ALL. You shouldn't make the game harder than real life, should you?

[Parduz]

Just tried the demo.
As a longitme Orbiter fan and player, i confess that the only mission i was able to achieve has been the RCS one. Flying in VTol mode is really hard... and flying in "engine" mode is not easy.
Some "help" like using pitch to set an angle and then the ship will (try to) mantain that angle could be really useful.

Other than the suggestions already given in this thread, i'd like to add that the game should accept "multiple-buttons" input.
As example, i would like to use my Thrustmaster button-5 with hat for RCS "traslation", and button-6 + hat for RCS rotation.
If i could combine buttons in this way, i could fly any mode and look around without even need to put my hand on the keyboard.

[SigilFey]

Originally posted by vincent.gabriel:

Also speaking of trim ... their are no controls for trim. AT ALL. You shouldn't make the game harder than real life, should you?

Fair enough. I supposed there would be a lore-based reason for it. I suppose it might be difficult and prone to irreversible error to have an autopilot try to account for multiple different atmospheres and gravity variations between numerous different astral bodies. Whereas, a pilot always has a feel for the craft. If they're always in control, there can be no "automatic" errors.

Hey...I'm working with what we got here. Ferget abbat it.

Originally posted by Parduz:

Just tried the demo.
As a longitme Orbiter fan and player, i confess that the only mission i was able to achieve has been the RCS one. Flying in VTol mode is really hard... and flying in "engine" mode is not easy.
Some "help" like using pitch to set an angle and then the ship will (try to) mantain that angle could be really useful.

I'll jump on this side to say that I've love an auto-hover feature. It is sssoooOOOooo hard to hover in a steady position in atmosphere. I can take off and land successfully pretty much anywhere on the first attempt...but hovering...what do you want!? The moon!?

Seriously, it's next to impossible to do smoothly. I'm honestly not that skilled with VTOL stuff, though.

[Knsgf]

Originally posted by SigilFey:

Originally posted by vincent.gabriel:

Also speaking of trim ... their are no controls for trim. AT ALL. You shouldn't make the game harder than real life, should you?

Fair enough. I supposed there would be a lore-based reason for it. I suppose it might be difficult and prone to irreversible error to have an autopilot try to account for multiple different atmospheres and gravity variations between numerous different astral bodies.

A trim is not an autopilot. On helicopters It's the manually operated hat on the control stick that sets its "neutral" position, thus relieving the pilot from having to pull it all the time.

[Eiko]

I agree that at some point the total lack of computer assists needs to be explained (it would be fine with no story, but if the game will have a story it's something that can't just be ignored). It could be like Dune/StarWars and AI is just not allowed to either exist, or it can exist but not be built into ships. Or maybe we're just an eccentric who likes to fly manually.

Anyway, yeah trim is a totally different thing from that. It would be nice to have pitch trim for the aerosurfaces at least. A suggestion for debate: maybe in atmosphere, the "Kill Rotation" button should become "attitude hold" or "pitch hold" or "trim set".

[impulse 101]

Originally posted by Eiko:

It would be nice to have pitch trim for the aerosurfaces at least. A suggestion for debate: maybe in atmosphere, the "Kill Rotation" button should become "attitude hold" or "pitch hold" or "trim set".

+1

Trim me up like a fancy mustache!

[moira.lachesis]

Originally posted by Eiko:

It would be nice to have pitch trim for the aerosurfaces at least. A suggestion for debate: maybe in atmosphere, the "Kill Rotation" button should become "attitude hold" or "pitch hold" or "trim set".

Even just a manual trim would be a huge help.