Needs Map BAD.

[Rocky Glacier]

the graphics of this game makes it had to see where you are at and where paths are.
I like the game, but without a good auto-map, I can't recommend this game.

[fourfourtwo79]

Originally posted by etalian:

The maps are pretty small and have fairly simple layouts. Might be confusing at first especially the sewer level but after that really easier to memorize all the layouts.

The sewer level literally has a map you can aquire by completing a quest.

It's in-universe though. Which means, an actual map made by someone you get from that someone. That somebody even drew markers for stuff he considered important.

In other words: Gaming incline. :-) If anybody ran with that idea, you'd have a fantastic Indiana Jones game, making you actually feel like Indy for once. Unfortunately, the game just announced will likely incorporate all the "modern" awfully convient design, including markers everywhere. Missing that opportunity right there. https://www.moviepropstore.de/shop/2835-large_default/indiana-jones-grail-diary-prop-replica.jpg



The OP was on to something else though: Which is the game's visuals. At times it can be a tad difficult to see where a path is, purely visually. And at some point in a harbor, there's even a ship plank that LOOKS like it's walkable to access that ship, but actually isn't. This is only partially an issue with the game's art style. It's mainly one of layouting.

Entrances to buildings are an example of that as well: Sometimes, they're hidden from clear view. The solution to that probably needn't be placing all houses so that you always walk in from the "south", with the door always in clear sight. But for instance making roofs transparent as soon as you approach a door, rather than at the point where you're basically standing right inside the building entered already. Places like Horryn can be a bit tricky in general, as you're oft walking right behind rooftops in the foreground, etc. Plus having an (optional) more zoomed out view may help in keeping an overview.

[Wylfen]

This entire discussion, starting from the OP on, is one of the sanest and most civil I've seen on steam. Constructive even. Makes me kind of teary...and I am being serious about the positives.

[ass goblin]

Why do you need a map?? Maybe they should go over basic shapes and colors with you too

[Usurper]

Originally posted by Furcas:

Originally posted by Usurper:

Seeing such posts just makes me realise how much gaming changed.Creativity and self thinking of the player was basicly fundamental in gaming until hand holding found its way in to get more players in certain games.Thus a post to change something is faster written these days than playing a few minutes more.

The maps really arent that big and within a few minutes you pretty much memorize them.
Game was intended to get played without a map and its well done how intuitive they are outlined.
And like someone mentioned above,theres an in universe map for the sewers.

A map itself is nothing bad,and surely some need it.But this isnt one of them.

Been playing RPGs since the 80s. Games are better with automaps built in. Ain't nobody got time for graphing paper anymore.

Read my post and maybe those of others here again

[Cahalith]

I'd say that between the relatively small maps, the highlight key for objects/interactables and the ability to click on any tile to make your character automatically seek out a path there, I haven't really had any issue with navigation or moving around.

Though I have seen a bunch of people say they have trouble with reading the game's graphics, especially in combat. I guess I wouldn't mind the dev adding some accessibility functions, as long as they're optional.

[nakoda]

you don't need a map for this game.

the tiles are really small, and there aren't any actual dead ends in any of the dungeon mazes that can kill you.

use a pen and paper, like the gods intended.

[Darkside Hamster]

That's one thing you can't get with Steam: the feel of opening a box and seeing that cloth map inside, studying it for hours while translating the runes. We've come a long way, but man did I love those maps. I still have three Ultima ones. Maybe some artistic user will make one and upload it as a PDF

[Wylfen]

Originally posted by ass goblin:

Why do you need a map?? Maybe they should go over basic shapes and colors with you too

And then the inevitable appears...

[fourfourtwo79]

Originally posted by Darkside Hamster:

That's one thing you can't get with Steam: the feel of opening a box and seeing that cloth map inside, studying it for hours while translating the runes. We've come a long way, but man did I love those maps. I still have three Ultima ones. Maybe some artistic user will make one and upload it as a PDF

Yeah, that was awesome. Mapping a place for yourself or navigating it by in-universe maps isn't about having an added "challenge", as argued by someone on the last page who compared this to combat difficulty levels. It's about immersing yourselves into a world, rather than being guided like a tourist.

Naturally, whilst Digital Distribution has killed boxed copies, it's also the reason games like SKALD even exist -- for many years, not only few publishers dictated what gets be made. But retailers also. You wouldn't see a game like SKALD at your local Walmart, not even a more specialized gaming vendor. That'd be space for them "wasted" for a game only appealing to a niche. If the game's box would contain much of extra, that would mean a bigger box and thus extra space even. The only way to bring it back thus is via pdf et all.

https://www.pcgamer.com/seasoned-rpg-devs-from-obsidian-and-bioware-blame-the-temporary-death-of-the-isometric-crpg-on-vibes-based-forecasting-from-retailers/

[Darkside Hamster]

Originally posted by fourfourtwo79:

Yeah, that was awesome. Mapping a place for yourself or navigating it by in-universe maps isn't about having an added "challenge", as argued by someone on the last page who compared this to combat difficulty levels. It's about immersing yourselves into a world, rather than being guided like a tourist.

Exactly! Couldn't have put it better, myself (and didn't).

Naturally, whilst Digital Distribution has killed boxed copies, it's also the reason games like SKALD even exist -- for many years, not only few publishers dictated what gets be made. But retailers also. You wouldn't see a game like SKALD at your local Walmart, not even a more specialized gaming vendor. That'd be space for them "wasted" for a game only appealing to a niche. If the game's box would contain much of extra, that would mean a bigger box and thus extra space even. The only way to bring it back thus is via pdf et all.

No argument here. I've been waiting for this for a long time and it's been worth the wait. I've spent the afternoon getting lost in it and it's amazing. By the way, I discovered one of the DLCs has PDF maps of the overworld. I didn't have enough in the steamwallet to grab it, but I'll probably get it the next time I buy a card.

[Pinkubōrumaunten]

Originally posted by etalian:

The maps are pretty small and have fairly simple layouts. Might be confusing at first especially the sewer level but after that really easier to memorize all the layouts.

I was figuring the sewers were going to be like Arcanum sized based on all the complaints then when I actually got there... let's just say these people need to play the mountains section in Wizardry 6 if they want a "confusing area."

[KnuckleHead]

The biggest area I'm having trouble navigating is on the boat. I think it's mostly because I'm slightly color blind but I find it really difficult to tell the difference between shallows and the sea. i think the game could def use a little more color distinction between these two tile types.

[Mr. Welldone]

*Looks up from graph paper and pencil... like we did it in the old days*

[Wylfen]

Originally posted by Mr. Welldone:

*Looks up from graph paper and pencil... like we did it in the old days*

I was there...the "old days". I don't have quite the same nostalgia for graphing that some seem to have. Did it, but not joyfully. Most of the other aspects, such as more engagement of imagination, which Skald has, I do miss. Comfortable familiarity.

[fourfourtwo79]

That said: The reason you needed a graphpaper was because maps were bonafide checkerbox labyrinths full of hidden teleport traps and spinners to make you lose your bearings. https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/appleii/564328-the-bards-tale-tales-of-the-unknown-volume-i/map/9956-sewers-map

In other words, these worlds were deliberately DESIGNED to make you get lost. Navigating a maze like map was an inherent part of the gameplay.

SKALD ain't close (though it has a few visual issues talked about more recent).
Even the sewers, for which there is that splendind in-game map to aquire (map SPOILER): https://i.imgur.com/yKmbwM2.png I guess optionally introducing automapping wouldn't change much here. But naturally make these kinda maps moot.

Tomorrow sees the release of New Blood's Fallen Aces. Different kinda game, but very much looking forward to navigating its places. Which was a delight in the demo already. It, too, had in-universe maps, Thief-style. With multiple entrances to places... and you being thus able to plan ahead via that map, acccordingly to your desired playstyle too (guns blazing or sneaking in through one of the "backdoors")? Even the dialogue you may eavesdrop on can give off hints as to objectives: "Delia? Yeah, I think the boss has locked her upstairs in his office somewhere..." This makes you engage with a game world right when exploring it, rather than just being lead by the nose.

https://i.imgur.com/A8Ewxzw.png