SKALD: Against the Black Priory

SKALD: Against the Black Priory

Ver estadísticas:
slartifer 30 MAY 2024 a las 9:07 p. m.
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Class info and balance considerations
I haven't played through the whole game, but I used the console to explore and compile the feats and spells available for each class. Also, I did some math to explore how offense and defense rolls work. The details are below, but first here are some conclusions.

- I can see compelling reasons to use Thief, Ranger, Guild-Magos, Hierophant, and probably Officer.
- Hospitaller and Armsmaster are both good alternatives.
- Champion is not great, and Battlemagos is worse. To be clear, they are perfectly playable, and there's nothing wrong with enjoying them. They are just flat-out worse than the others in terms of power and utility.
- Agility is probably the best general purpose stat, especially for front-liners who can also use shields. Fortitude is harder to argue for, the HP seems good at first but it doesn't scale and is eventually dwarfed by what you get from levelling up.

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HIT AND DODGE ROLLS:
Although the game presents bonuses and penalties in a way that looks just like what we are used to from D&D and similar games, where a +1 bonus is +5%, the rolls are actually quite different for three reasons:
(1) 2d6 is rolled instead of 1d20
(2) Both allies and enemies roll twice and use the best result (on Normal difficulty)
(3) For hit/dodge rolls, attacker and defender each make their own rolls rather than making one roll against an armor class

The math is complex, but the upshot is that in D&D, it would take a +16 bonus to move from 10% to 90% accuracy, so it's quite gradual. In Skald, it takes roughly a +7 bonus to move from ~11% to ~89% (+6 on Hard difficulty). So if your hit bonus is similar to your target's dodge score (or vice versa), you're in the hot zone where a small buff or debuff will make a big difference. And this in turn means that Hit and Dodge are both great investments: they'll make a big difference for you in any battle where one side isn't massively outclassing the other.

(For saving throws, 1 and 2 both apply but 3 does not, and you get a slightly milder version of the same effect.)

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ARMSMASTER (STR/AGI or AGI/STR)
- Weapon Trees: Club, Axe, Sword, Heavy; Bow; Shield
- Armor Trees: Light, Medium, Heavy
- Misc Trees: Multi Attack
- 5 HP/level

Club Tree has two different abilities that can stun.
Shield Tree offers +3 to Dodge for only 3 skill points.

Likely passive effects:
+4 Hit, +3 Damage, +10% Crit, +3 Dodge; +2 Charge, +3 Phalanx


OFFICER (STR/AGI or AGI/STR)
- Weapon Trees: Axe, Sword; Shield
- Armor Trees: Light, Medium, Heavy
- Misc Trees: Multi Attack, Commands
- 5 HP/level

Commands are decent, especially the high level one (mass extra attack).
Shield Tree offers +3 to Dodge for only 3 skill points.
Very similar to Armsmaster -- main trade-off is no Club use.

Likely passive effects:
+6 Hit, +3 Damage, +10% Crit, +3 Dodge; +2 Charge, +3 Phalanx


THIEF (AGI/STR)
- Weapon Trees: Light, Sword; Bow
- Misc Trees: Hiding, Backstab, Mobility
- Armor Trees: Light/Crit
- 3 HP/level

Insane amount of Backstab damage available.
Main trade-off versus Armsmaster is no Multi Attack.

Likely passive totals:
+2 Move, +30 Backstab; +3 Hit, +1 Damage, +9% Crit, +1 Dodge


RANGER (AGI/PRE)
- Weapon Trees: Axe, Sword; Bow
- Armor Trees: Light, Medium
- Misc Trees: Multi Attack, Bow+
- Magic Trees: Nature (3)
- 5 HP/level, 2 MP/level

Very obviously wants to go Bows.
Multiple free attacks from Rapid Shot and Critical Strike + Rapid Reload.
Spells include heal, Agi/Str buffs, remote immobilize (MT), and summon.

Likely passive effects:
+6 Hit, +4 Damage, +13% Crit


GUILD-MAGOS (INT/AGI)
- Misc Trees: Arcane
- Magic Trees: Fire (4), Air (4), Earth (4)
- 2 HP/level, 4 MP/level

Spells include MT damage; silence, blindness, stun ray, MT slow; fire resistance, pyrrhic frenzy buff; summons;
Guild-Magos-only spells include: MT stun/poison, damage/blindness cone; invisibility; dispel; powerful defensive buff; powerful MT damage/stun/debuff

Likely passive effects:
+5 Spell Aptitude, +2 Cascade; Fire/Acid/Lightning Immunity


BATTLEMAGOS (INT/AGI)
- Weapon Trees: Light, Sword; Bow
- Misc Trees: Arcane
- Magic Trees: Fire (4), Air (2), Earth (2)
- 2 HP/level, 4 MP/level

Misses out on some good spells and arcane boosts in exchange for being an extremely unimpressive warrior. No real offensive or defensive boosts and no Multi Attack. No armor tree and no shields means poor Dodge options, which isn't great for survival. And IMO Fire is the least interesting magic school at high levels. Don't recommend this class at all.

Spells include MT damage; silence, blindness, stun ray, MT slow; fire resistance, pyrrhic frenzy buff; summons.

Likely passive effects:
+5 Spell Aptitude, +2 Cascade; +3 Hit, +6% Crit; Fire Immunity


HIEROPHANT (PRE/AGI)
- Misc Trees: Religion
- Magic Trees: Body (4), Mind (4), Spirit (4)
- 4 HP/level, 3 MP/level

Spells include heal, MT damage; Agi/Str buffs, ST stun/confuse; auras of bless, heroism, will, condemnation, silence, fear, disease;
Stronger heal, MT heal, aura of heal/cure, aura of miasma;
Hierophant-only spells include: ST paralysis; auras of heal/buff, dispel, blind/fear, stun.

If you don't care about the unique spells or the level of Cascade, Hospitaller is better. Better armor is nice and club stuns are good, but so are stun aura and ranged paralysis. IMO Cascade tips the scales in favor of Hierophant, but it's close.

Likely passive effects:
+2 Radius, +2 Spell Aptitude, +1 Cascade


HOSPITALLER (PRE/STR or PRE/AGI or STR/AGI)
- Weapon Trees: Shield/Club
- Armor Trees: Medium, Heavy
- Misc Trees: Religion
- Magic Trees: Body (4), Mind (2), Spirit (2)
- 4 HP/level, 3 MP/level

Club Tree has two different abilities that can stun.
Shield Tree offers +2 to Dodge for only 2 skill points.
Basically trades Armsmaster's Multi Attack for a bunch of divine spells.

Spells include heal, MT damage; Agi/Str buffs, ST stun/confuse; auras of bless, heroism, will, condemnation, silence, fear, disease;
Stronger heal, MT heal, aura of heal/cure, aura of miasma.

Likely passive effects:
+2 Radius, +1 Spell Aptitude; +2 Hit, +2 Damage, +2 Dodge; +2 Phalanx


CHAMPION (PRE/STR or PRE/AGI or STR/AGI)
- Weapon Trees: Sword, Heavy; Shield
- Armor Trees: Medium, Heavy
- Misc Trees: Religion
- Magic Trees: Body (2), Mind (2), Spirit (2)
- 4 HP/level, 4 MP/level

Compared to Armsmaster, loses out on both Multi Attack and interesting weapon trees (Clubs). Compared to Hospitaller, loses out on the Clubs and extra Body spells in exchange for... very minor passive bonuses. Ranger also covers a lot of the same spell ground with much better bonuses. Can't recommend this one either, but at least it can tank better than Battlemagos and throws decent auras. (And for some reason it gets more MP than Hierophant...)

Spells include heal, MT damage; Agi/Str buffs, ST stun/confuse; auras of bless, heroism, will, condemnation, silence, fear, disease.

Likely passive effects:
+2 Radius, +1 Spell Aptitude; +3 Hit, +2 Damage, +6% Crit, +3 Dodge; +3 Phalanx
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Mostrando 16-30 de 52 comentarios
Frostfeather 31 MAY 2024 a las 4:27 p. m. 
Publicado originalmente por Jesse:
I'm making a Heirophant, just playing for the first time - one thing I wish was more clear, maybe you can answer, I'm assuming the mind/body/spirit schools are...different spells? are these spells listed somewhere in game?

There are no spell lists anywhere. Magic was an afterthought in this game, so I'd recommend against being a caster.
Undare 31 MAY 2024 a las 5:58 p. m. 
When I go to the trade screen, while having selected my hospitaller (With high Dimplomacy) I get better selling and buying prices.
So, I am guessing Diplomacy also improves prices. (Needs confirmation)

Been running a devious strategy while I sell expensive potions with the hospitaller, I steal them back with my thief, and I resell them again = profit! :Purse_of_Gold:
DarkHarlequin 31 MAY 2024 a las 6:10 p. m. 
Publicado originalmente por Undare:
When I go to the trade screen, while having selected my hospitaller (With high Dimplomacy) I get better selling and buying prices.
So, I am guessing Diplomacy also improves prices. (Needs confirmation)

Been running a devious strategy while I sell expensive potions with the hospitaller, I steal them back with my thief, and I resell them again = profit! :Purse_of_Gold:

As far as i can see, selling prices depend also on suspicion level. I am pretty sure you can't sell stolen goods to most merchants.
Neo007 31 MAY 2024 a las 7:00 p. m. 
Publicado originalmente por Ninth Hour:
Publicado originalmente por slartifer:
Champion is not great, and Battlemagos is worse. To be clear, they are perfectly playable, and there's nothing wrong with enjoying them. They are just flat-out worse than the others in terms of power and utility.

Sadly, my experience so far with the Battlemagos aligns with your assessment. It feels weak in the early game.

Having played the demo (before it got cut), I had some idea of what to expect in the first Chapter (which covers the same content) and can affirm that this part of the game is not balanced around a squishy spellcaster.

Unless you know where to look, you won't find Roland for a while and will have to fight a bunch of battles with just yourself and Kat, who isn't a tank.

During those encounters, my Battlemagos kept on getting injured, despite my best efforts to keep my distance. The early spells just don't do enough damage and you can't cast them more than 3 or 4 times before running out of Attunement. So I had to resort to melee. And as you've said, the magos is an unimpressive fighter.

Granted, the quick level ups restored him to full health every time he got seriously injured but it didn't feel like a comfortable start.

I fared much better when I played a fighter in the demo. In any case, you will probably find a mage later. It's probably better to include one when you already have solid fighters in your party.

I had considered starting with a Champion, as paladins tend to be my default starting archetype for most RPG's. However, I decided to break the mold this time by trying a spellcaster. I'm sorry to hear that Champions are similarly underwhelming.

Don't worry you can enjoy a Champion build without loss of efficacy for a few reasons that weren't considered.

For e.g Champions are actually pretty good with a two handed heavy weapon, which the author did not account for, if you spec that way, they are an even more sustainable armsmaster, though to get a two hander early you will have to take Rolands two handed great sword.

You can get cleave around the same time you would get multiattack with an armsmaster which is all you really need, with high enough str and decent feat selection you can out heal and outdamage what most enemies can throw at you. Lesser regen is also pretty cheap for what it does and you can kite enemies or stay out of their range to get free heals if you really wanna cheese but its not necessary...

Its kinda overpowered all things considered, but then again the 2d6 system is pretty easy to game as the stat ceiling isnt very high as the OP pointed out. Choosing champion (with the right spec) is a very optimal build (im playing on hardest difficulty btw with a couple options turned up for more challenge and still steam rolling fights) with added benefit of diplomacy/presence stats for buying selling and camp buffs, and you dont' NEED the two hander from Roland though it does help. The +2 damage you get from the tier 1 spirit spell is amazing early on and you can have both cheap healing and damage buff at level 1 if you want.
Última edición por Neo007; 1 JUN 2024 a las 5:59 a. m.
Neo007 31 MAY 2024 a las 7:19 p. m. 
-Sadly, my experience so far with the Battlemagos aligns with your assessment. It feels weak in the early game.-



Agreed about battle magos though, he is undertuned, maybe decreasing cost of spells like flaming fist to 4att and buffing spell burn ability might help a bit. Currently, you get significantly punished for using spell burn with a magic aptitude build because you routinely take way more damage than the attunement (which works like mp) you replenish.

Since the Battle Magos' spells are mostly close range he should probably get 3 or 4hp a level instead of the stingy 2hp/level.

Spell burn sucks
1-4 self damage (plus magic aptitude) for 3-6 att makes no sense.
lets say you have magic aptitude of 4 (my char currently has 6) you're doing 5-8 self damage for a measly 3-6 att most attack spells cost about 6 att except for that earth spell (swarm of knats) that costs 3....you have low vitality with a magos so a few burns and your basically dead unless you rest all the time which makes spell burn irrelevant at that point...so yeah bad trade. ALSO it has a 3 round cool down (I mean really?) ALSO ALSO it scales terribly (not at all except counting self damage *rolls eyes*) for a 6 point investment (that's equivalent to two levels worth).

It being only a move action is a good choice though for what it does.

I am enjoying the game overall so kudos to the dev but the game could use a few tuning passes so hope he's listening to the forums.
Última edición por Neo007; 31 MAY 2024 a las 7:50 p. m.
Zealous88 31 MAY 2024 a las 8:06 p. m. 
Sooooo did they have an early patch or are tool tips incorrect. according to character creation screen, hospitaler only gets up to medium armor, and champion can use heavy swords and clubs.
andersonm 31 MAY 2024 a las 8:25 p. m. 
Requesting input on this:

Should thief really go for "ranged backstab"?

I feel that by maxing agility instead of strength, the melee +hit ends up being too low. Also a lot of late game monsters cancel your stealth when you approach them.
slartifer 31 MAY 2024 a las 8:56 p. m. 
Publicado originalmente por xiaolendrahl:
Sooooo did they have an early patch or are tool tips incorrect. according to character creation screen, hospitaler only gets up to medium armor, and champion can use heavy swords and clubs.
Some classes can equip items that they don't have a skill tree for. This is going to be moderately to seriously worse depending on the weapon, as you lose points in hit, damage, and special abilities like club stun. If there's no tree I wouldn't seriously consider building around those weapons.

There may also be some mismatched tooltips though, not 100% sure.
Neo007 31 MAY 2024 a las 10:55 p. m. 
Publicado originalmente por andersonm:
Requesting input on this:

Should thief really go for "ranged backstab"?

I feel that by maxing agility instead of strength, the melee +hit ends up being too low. Also a lot of late game monsters cancel your stealth when you approach them.

this is how my rogue companion is ending up only now getting archery feats and doing pretty well from the beginning highest dps when it hits with the backtstab, have that automatic hide in combat feat so its guaranteed first round more or less, been using starter bow and worst arrows cuz they are usually cheaper too so I'd say it is pretty viable.
Última edición por Neo007; 1 JUN 2024 a las 5:50 a. m.
Slayer 1 JUN 2024 a las 3:44 a. m. 
Publicado originalmente por Jesse:
I'm making a Heirophant, just playing for the first time - one thing I wish was more clear, maybe you can answer, I'm assuming the mind/body/spirit schools are...different spells? are these spells listed somewhere in game?

That's what I'd like to know too. What is Body Magic? I wish I knew without having to drop points.
Última edición por Slayer; 1 JUN 2024 a las 3:45 a. m.
etalian 1 JUN 2024 a las 4:38 a. m. 
Classes like the mage also seem worse since the strategy of game is all about killing the hordes of enemies quickly as possible. Even more if you are lucky to trigger a auto-rout by dropping their morale down.

Classes like the arms master just seem better at the above since with a 2H build you could dish out 3 high damage attacks a turn (2 attacks + 1 cleave).

The ranger is also awesome at the above since some of the later feats boast up their max attacks per round.
Darkbridger 1 JUN 2024 a las 5:31 a. m. 
Publicado originalmente por Ninth Hour:
Publicado originalmente por dq_177:
Are speech skills important in the finished game?
And if so what classes mesh well with focusing on them.

Diplomacy appears to be useful. Even in the prologue, it gets checked a decent number of times. As it is enhanced by Presence, Clerics (Champion, Hierophants, Hospitallers) would naturally gravitate towards this skill.

The Officer can also be good for this, but it is harder as Presence is not the main stat for him, which is a bit weird. No one is probably playing an Officer for the combat ability and the unique Leadership tree is all centered around Diplomacy increases which you will be forced to get if you want any of the cooler combat abilities.
andersonm 1 JUN 2024 a las 5:40 a. m. 
Before you dunk on mage:

I actually feel mage classes synergize well with melee. Late game many enemies are damage sinks.
On higher difficulties because of reroll mechanics hits and damage will tend to always at the high end, so this is where utility like stun becomes useful. Nothing is ever resistant to stun, not even boss enemies.

Some spells that I found most useful:
* Poison orb - air tree: Area stun and poison at range (can this be boosted with the ring of +aura?)
* Thunderclap - air tree: Stun and damage every enemy
* Summon Ooze (Earth) and Summon magmite (Fire) - summons a melee resistant mob that can tie up enemies for many turns
* Swarm of gnats - Earth 2 - super cheap 3 mana attack spell that reduces dodge (much better than magic missile it seems)
* Arcane shockwave - Earth - 3 range stun spell
* Distort mass - Earth 4 - Deals 15-30 damage + aptitute (late game about 10) to one enemy
* Diamond form - Earth 4 - +7 soak and immunity to acid, cold, electric, fire (few enemies use these though), critical hits and a number of status effects
* Strength and agility buffs (body and nature tier 2, so not mages) - fantastic, cast it after you rest, remains up until next combat

Fire tree seems to suck at high tiers.

You do have to rest between every 1-2 battles.
andersonm 1 JUN 2024 a las 5:45 a. m. 
Publicado originalmente por Darkbridger:
Publicado originalmente por Ninth Hour:

Diplomacy appears to be useful. Even in the prologue, it gets checked a decent number of times. As it is enhanced by Presence, Clerics (Champion, Hierophants, Hospitallers) would naturally gravitate towards this skill.

The Officer can also be good for this, but it is harder as Presence is not the main stat for him, which is a bit weird. No one is probably playing an Officer for the combat ability and the unique Leadership tree is all centered around Diplomacy increases which you will be forced to get if you want any of the cooler combat abilities.

To the contrary - the problem is that cooldowns are shared between abilities. So you can't use that 3 turn cooldown rally ability one turn, and the 3 turn cooldown +attack the next turn. Using the first ability puts all abilities on cooldown.
It means a lot of points are wasted if you pick up every cooldown ability. You can only use one. Better to only pick up one or two.

An officer is like an armsmaster that every 3 turns can use a party ability.

Every character that goes melee should put max points into strength. Officer also gets double attack.
etalian 1 JUN 2024 a las 5:51 a. m. 
Publicado originalmente por andersonm:
Before you dunk on mage:

I actually feel mage classes synergize well with melee. Late game many enemies are damage sinks.
On higher difficulties because of reroll mechanics hits and damage will tend to always at the high end, so this is where utility like stun becomes useful. Nothing is ever resistant to stun, not even boss enemies.

Yeah the mage is big letdown if you focus on damage spells for the current game balance.

All the various buffing / Damage over Time / Debuff spells for the current balance are much more useful by comparison.

For raw damage the fighter / ranger classes are much better for wiping out a tougher enemy in a single round.
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