Class info and balance considerations

[slartifer]

I haven't played through the whole game, but I used the console to explore and compile the feats and spells available for each class. Also, I did some math to explore how offense and defense rolls work. The details are below, but first here are some conclusions.

- I can see compelling reasons to use Thief, Ranger, Guild-Magos, Hierophant, and probably Officer.
- Hospitaller and Armsmaster are both good alternatives.
- Champion is not great, and Battlemagos is worse. To be clear, they are perfectly playable, and there's nothing wrong with enjoying them. They are just flat-out worse than the others in terms of power and utility.
- Agility is probably the best general purpose stat, especially for front-liners who can also use shields. Fortitude is harder to argue for, the HP seems good at first but it doesn't scale and is eventually dwarfed by what you get from levelling up.

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HIT AND DODGE ROLLS:
Although the game presents bonuses and penalties in a way that looks just like what we are used to from D&D and similar games, where a +1 bonus is +5%, the rolls are actually quite different for three reasons:
(1) 2d6 is rolled instead of 1d20
(2) Both allies and enemies roll twice and use the best result (on Normal difficulty)
(3) For hit/dodge rolls, attacker and defender each make their own rolls rather than making one roll against an armor class

The math is complex, but the upshot is that in D&D, it would take a +16 bonus to move from 10% to 90% accuracy, so it's quite gradual. In Skald, it takes roughly a +7 bonus to move from ~11% to ~89% (+6 on Hard difficulty). So if your hit bonus is similar to your target's dodge score (or vice versa), you're in the hot zone where a small buff or debuff will make a big difference. And this in turn means that Hit and Dodge are both great investments: they'll make a big difference for you in any battle where one side isn't massively outclassing the other.

(For saving throws, 1 and 2 both apply but 3 does not, and you get a slightly milder version of the same effect.)

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ARMSMASTER (STR/AGI or AGI/STR)
- Weapon Trees: Club, Axe, Sword, Heavy; Bow; Shield
- Armor Trees: Light, Medium, Heavy
- Misc Trees: Multi Attack
- 5 HP/level

Club Tree has two different abilities that can stun.
Shield Tree offers +3 to Dodge for only 3 skill points.

Likely passive effects:
+4 Hit, +3 Damage, +10% Crit, +3 Dodge; +2 Charge, +3 Phalanx


OFFICER (STR/AGI or AGI/STR)
- Weapon Trees: Axe, Sword; Shield
- Armor Trees: Light, Medium, Heavy
- Misc Trees: Multi Attack, Commands
- 5 HP/level

Commands are decent, especially the high level one (mass extra attack).
Shield Tree offers +3 to Dodge for only 3 skill points.
Very similar to Armsmaster -- main trade-off is no Club use.

Likely passive effects:
+6 Hit, +3 Damage, +10% Crit, +3 Dodge; +2 Charge, +3 Phalanx


THIEF (AGI/STR)
- Weapon Trees: Light, Sword; Bow
- Misc Trees: Hiding, Backstab, Mobility
- Armor Trees: Light/Crit
- 3 HP/level

Insane amount of Backstab damage available.
Main trade-off versus Armsmaster is no Multi Attack.

Likely passive totals:
+2 Move, +30 Backstab; +3 Hit, +1 Damage, +9% Crit, +1 Dodge


RANGER (AGI/PRE)
- Weapon Trees: Axe, Sword; Bow
- Armor Trees: Light, Medium
- Misc Trees: Multi Attack, Bow+
- Magic Trees: Nature (3)
- 5 HP/level, 2 MP/level

Very obviously wants to go Bows.
Multiple free attacks from Rapid Shot and Critical Strike + Rapid Reload.
Spells include heal, Agi/Str buffs, remote immobilize (MT), and summon.

Likely passive effects:
+6 Hit, +4 Damage, +13% Crit


GUILD-MAGOS (INT/AGI)
- Misc Trees: Arcane
- Magic Trees: Fire (4), Air (4), Earth (4)
- 2 HP/level, 4 MP/level

Spells include MT damage; silence, blindness, stun ray, MT slow; fire resistance, pyrrhic frenzy buff; summons;
Guild-Magos-only spells include: MT stun/poison, damage/blindness cone; invisibility; dispel; powerful defensive buff; powerful MT damage/stun/debuff

Likely passive effects:
+5 Spell Aptitude, +2 Cascade; Fire/Acid/Lightning Immunity


BATTLEMAGOS (INT/AGI)
- Weapon Trees: Light, Sword; Bow
- Misc Trees: Arcane
- Magic Trees: Fire (4), Air (2), Earth (2)
- 2 HP/level, 4 MP/level

Misses out on some good spells and arcane boosts in exchange for being an extremely unimpressive warrior. No real offensive or defensive boosts and no Multi Attack. No armor tree and no shields means poor Dodge options, which isn't great for survival. And IMO Fire is the least interesting magic school at high levels. Don't recommend this class at all.

Spells include MT damage; silence, blindness, stun ray, MT slow; fire resistance, pyrrhic frenzy buff; summons.

Likely passive effects:
+5 Spell Aptitude, +2 Cascade; +3 Hit, +6% Crit; Fire Immunity


HIEROPHANT (PRE/AGI)
- Misc Trees: Religion
- Magic Trees: Body (4), Mind (4), Spirit (4)
- 4 HP/level, 3 MP/level

Spells include heal, MT damage; Agi/Str buffs, ST stun/confuse; auras of bless, heroism, will, condemnation, silence, fear, disease;
Stronger heal, MT heal, aura of heal/cure, aura of miasma;
Hierophant-only spells include: ST paralysis; auras of heal/buff, dispel, blind/fear, stun.

If you don't care about the unique spells or the level of Cascade, Hospitaller is better. Better armor is nice and club stuns are good, but so are stun aura and ranged paralysis. IMO Cascade tips the scales in favor of Hierophant, but it's close.

Likely passive effects:
+2 Radius, +2 Spell Aptitude, +1 Cascade


HOSPITALLER (PRE/STR or PRE/AGI or STR/AGI)
- Weapon Trees: Shield/Club
- Armor Trees: Medium, Heavy
- Misc Trees: Religion
- Magic Trees: Body (4), Mind (2), Spirit (2)
- 4 HP/level, 3 MP/level

Club Tree has two different abilities that can stun.
Shield Tree offers +2 to Dodge for only 2 skill points.
Basically trades Armsmaster's Multi Attack for a bunch of divine spells.

Spells include heal, MT damage; Agi/Str buffs, ST stun/confuse; auras of bless, heroism, will, condemnation, silence, fear, disease;
Stronger heal, MT heal, aura of heal/cure, aura of miasma.

Likely passive effects:
+2 Radius, +1 Spell Aptitude; +2 Hit, +2 Damage, +2 Dodge; +2 Phalanx


CHAMPION (PRE/STR or PRE/AGI or STR/AGI)
- Weapon Trees: Sword, Heavy; Shield
- Armor Trees: Medium, Heavy
- Misc Trees: Religion
- Magic Trees: Body (2), Mind (2), Spirit (2)
- 4 HP/level, 4 MP/level

Compared to Armsmaster, loses out on both Multi Attack and interesting weapon trees (Clubs). Compared to Hospitaller, loses out on the Clubs and extra Body spells in exchange for... very minor passive bonuses. Ranger also covers a lot of the same spell ground with much better bonuses. Can't recommend this one either, but at least it can tank better than Battlemagos and throws decent auras. (And for some reason it gets more MP than Hierophant...)

Spells include heal, MT damage; Agi/Str buffs, ST stun/confuse; auras of bless, heroism, will, condemnation, silence, fear, disease.

Likely passive effects:
+2 Radius, +1 Spell Aptitude; +3 Hit, +2 Damage, +6% Crit, +3 Dodge; +3 Phalanx

[Pandada-sensei]

+1 kudos

Despite Fortitude being what it is, wouldn't you have to account for Wounds for frontliners anyway due to how easy it is to accumulate (or am I not understanding Wounds correctly)?

And spells are a bit of a bigger investment I suppose, how many are there and are there any that stand out?

[dq_177]

Are speech skills important in the finished game?
And if so what classes mesh well with focusing on them.

[Ninth Hour]

Originally posted by dq_177:

Are speech skills important in the finished game?
And if so what classes mesh well with focusing on them.

Diplomacy appears to be useful. Even in the prologue, it gets checked a decent number of times. As it is enhanced by Presence, Clerics (Champion, Hierophants, Hospitallers) would naturally gravitate towards this skill.

[Ninth Hour]

Originally posted by slartifer:

Champion is not great, and Battlemagos is worse. To be clear, they are perfectly playable, and there's nothing wrong with enjoying them. They are just flat-out worse than the others in terms of power and utility.

Sadly, my experience so far with the Battlemagos aligns with your assessment. It feels weak in the early game.

Having played the demo (before it got cut), I had some idea of what to expect in the first Chapter (which covers the same content) and can affirm that this part of the game is not balanced around a squishy spellcaster.

Unless you know where to look, you won't find Roland for a while and will have to fight a bunch of battles with just yourself and Kat, who isn't a tank.

During those encounters, my Battlemagos kept on getting injured, despite my best efforts to keep my distance. The early spells just don't do enough damage and you can't cast them more than 3 or 4 times before running out of Attunement. So I had to resort to melee. And as you've said, the magos is an unimpressive fighter.

Granted, the quick level ups restored him to full health every time he got seriously injured but it didn't feel like a comfortable start.

I fared much better when I played a fighter in the demo. In any case, you will probably find a mage later. It's probably better to include one when you already have solid fighters in your party.

I had considered starting with a Champion, as paladins tend to be my default starting archetype for most RPG's. However, I decided to break the mold this time by trying a spellcaster. I'm sorry to hear that Champions are similarly underwhelming.

[Arclight]

I found my guild-mage almost utterly useless, the attunement pool is way too small compared to the effects your spells do, the damaging spells are a litterral waste as it seems that your magic attunment damage bonus only adds to the possible damage ceiling, in addition to the base spell damage being hilariously low and gear is almost non-existant.

Some use can be found with utility spells , invisibility is bonkers when you have a thief with full backstab feats for example, but aside from a few outliers it seems like magic was a very distant afterthought in this game sadly.

[Macro Tofu]

Which class is best suitable for solo? I thought it would be air mage, if not many enemies can purge invisibility.

[Macro Tofu]

Originally posted by Arclight:

I found my guild-mage almost utterly useless, the attunement pool is way too small compared to the effects your spells do, the damaging spells are a litterral waste as it seems that your magic attunment damage bonus only adds to the possible damage ceiling, in addition to the base spell damage being hilariously low and gear is almost non-existant.

Some use can be found with utility spells , invisibility is bonkers when you have a thief with full backstab feats for example, but aside from a few outliers it seems like magic was a very distant afterthought in this game sadly.

I had the same feeling. The highest tier spells cost 30 att, and you can only cast them 3 or 4 times at max level. You need a truck of mana potions or rest a lot to make your mage's performance consistent.

[jasta85]

Hospitaller was what I was drawn to early on as it basically seemed like a Paladin (front liner that can also heal and do speech checks). Seems like I was right on that front.

What skills do you really want on your main character as opposed to party members? It seems like diplomacy is the obvious one but not sure if there is another one that I may have missed.

[slartifer]

Other than the swimming bug, which I assume will be fixed pretty rapidly, it seems like most skills can be used by whoever is set as the party leader in the moment.

[old]

Tysm for the number break down.
Take my points 👑👑👑

[etalian]

Originally posted by Arclight:

I found my guild-mage almost utterly useless, the attunement pool is way too small compared to the effects your spells do, the damaging spells are a litterral waste as it seems that your magic attunment damage bonus only adds to the possible damage ceiling, in addition to the base spell damage being hilariously low and gear is almost non-existant.

Some use can be found with utility spells , invisibility is bonkers when you have a thief with full backstab feats for example, but aside from a few outliers it seems like magic was a very distant afterthought in this game sadly.

Yeah in terms of doing raw damage the mage classes are pretty bad. Seeing numbers like 10-14 damage for fireball and in some areas the tougher bad guys have massive amounts of health like 60-70.

The utility spells are more useful by comparison,

[DarkHarlequin]

Thank you, this helps a lot. Could you please add balance considerations on backgrounds? It would be very appreciated.
For my hospitaler, I'm wavering between +1 to 2 skills, +1 movement and +1 damage to clubs.

[slartifer]

Personally, +1 movement seems like a bigger deal than anything else in backgrounds.

+1 to clubs seems good.

Beyond those it's really just pushing up whatever skill(s) that character is gonna try and be the expert on.

[Jesse]

I'm making a Heirophant, just playing for the first time - one thing I wish was more clear, maybe you can answer, I'm assuming the mind/body/spirit schools are...different spells? are these spells listed somewhere in game?

[Burninator]

Amazing work, I feel like this post should almost be sticky. It is also good feedback to the Dev too.