Very basic questions

[IkeV]

Hi. I hope this post doesn't come across as negative. I know that the developers are very responsive and helpful and I am aware that this isn't a AAA shop. A lot of people have been saying very positive things about OVR Toolkit, but I can't seem to get some very basic things to work, so I am going to assume the fault is mine and I am not understanding some very basic things. I can get the component parts to work (most of the time) but I can't seem to get it all to fit together.

Here's my situation: I mostly use VR for simulators. Primarily MSFS, ATS/ETS2, and IL-2. I'll probably throw in some racing games eventually. I would like to have some additional windows open - web sites, pdfs (flight charts, checklists, etc), itunes, maybe youtube if I want to watch a video while driving/flying.

I don't like fumbling with the keyboard, so I would prefer to use OVR with motion controllers, especially since they aren't generally supported in the games I play. I've been using Voiceattack with success, so eventually I may try to integrate voiceattack with OVR, but I'm not anywhere near there yet.

I've run through the tutorial and I have a basic idea of how to use the software. It's not the most intuitive, but I haven't got any suggestions on how to improve it.

I can open OVR tookit and get the windows I want set up. Great.

But then, if I start a game, I lose the ability to manipulate the windows I've set up. Or if I am able to interact with the windows, I lose the ability to interact with the game. So basically, I haven't been able to play a game, and use OVR toolkit to open one or more windows in the gamespace. Which is the exact reason I purchased this product.

Again, I have to assume that I'm doing something wrong. But right now it is impossible for me to use this product for the only purpose for which it is intended. And I'm starting to get frustrated.

Any help would be great. Thanks.

[CurtisVL]

Hi there!

I think 'It's not the most intuitive, but I haven't got any suggestions on how to improve it' sums up why UX is so difficult for developers, I can agree with that. Over time, I'm working to improve the experience and usability as I figure out ways to do so. Unfortunately VR doesn't really have any standard UX design so it's very much brain storming to figure out what works and what doesn't!

For the issue with interactions in games, when using simulator games you may want to enable the 'Tab out in Edit Mode' option on the settings window for OVR Toolkit outside of VR. This will tab OVR Toolkit out when you toggle your windows on with double Grips (Or Double A buttons on Index) and tab you back in afterwards.

As a lot of simulator games are ported from desktop games to be a VR title a lot of them pause rendering or stop taking input when their window isn't in focus on the desktop.
Try to ensure your games aren't fullscreen either as this can make it hard for OVR Toolkit to tab out of them, think of all the times you've pressed Alt Tab and the game tabs itself back in or locks the cursor to the game window, dumb stuff like that is all things OVR Toolkit has to try to deal with when a game is running.

If the game not being fullscreen and that setting doesn't resolve the issue, don't hesitate to join us on Discord where I'm able to reply faster and discuss this a bit easier!

Hope that helps. :)
https://discord.gg/KFGxc3e

[IkeV]

There's somehting I'm still not getting. I tried your suggestions - enabled Tab Out in Edit Mode and made sure that my game window wasn't fullscreen. I can be in the game space and see the OVR windows - but no input goes to the game. Or I can close the OVR windows by double clicking both grips and use the game.

[CurtisVL]

Originally posted by IkeV:

There's somehting I'm still not getting. I tried your suggestions - enabled Tab Out in Edit Mode and made sure that my game window wasn't fullscreen. I can be in the game space and see the OVR windows - but no input goes to the game. Or I can close the OVR windows by double clicking both grips and use the game.

For desktop ported games this sounds correct as they need to be tabbed in on your desktop for input to them to work.

Mainly people playing these games would be in 'Simulator Mode' for OVR Toolkit, in which case when using head gaze it automatically tabs you back into the game when you look away from windows.

As most people using VR controllers are playing games like VRChat, Beat Saber, Pavlov, etc. - Games that can be minimized and work fine - The standing mode doesn't automatically tab back in games without that option enabled.

You can however enable 'Keep visible' for your spawned overlays, thus when pressing the double grips binding it will tab the game in but keep your windows visible still. Note that pointing at a window with the VR controllers will tab you back out though! OVR Toolkit is limited to the limitations of windows, you must be tabbed into a program to use it still.

[IkeV]

Thanks Curtis. Is there some documentation that describes what the different settings and options do? I’d really prefer not to use the keyboard. What do the different alt-tab settings do?

[IkeV]

Or is there a way to use simulator mode but control it with the controllers?

[CurtisVL]

Simulator Mode is only for keyboard/USB controllers I'm afraid!

Does the game not tab back in when you double press the grips now? Does that not fix the issue? :o

I'm afraid the settings on the desktop window are a bit undocumented right now, some of the settings are extremely old and could probably be removed, just keep them on for now though.

[IkeV]

Ok, so I tried simulator mode. I was able to figure out how to open up, set, and move windows, and have them open during game. However, I wasn't able to figure out how to interact with them, other than to move them around. I could set it so that there was a blue cursor that followed my view, but couldn't find a way to "click" it. What am I missing?

I have to be honest with you. I appreciate that you are very responsive and that you have the discord channel and the videos, but "a bit undocumented right now" is really an understatement. This entire piece of software is appallingly undocumented. I appreciate that documenting software isn't fun, and that things change, but you really need to sit down for a few hours and write up some proper user guides and documentation. And no, those old videos don't count. They're out of date, and no one wants to watch an entire video when they are trying to look something up quickly. I mentioned that I was using Voiceattack. Two of the things I love about that program are (1) the interface is clean and intuitive, and (2) it has really good documentation. There may be nothing you can do right now about the first thing. I get that VR is new technology and UIs have not been standardized yet. But there is really no excuse for the lack of documentation.

/rant off.

Sorry. I really want to like, use, and recommend this software. I haven't found anything better. But it's just too difficult to figure out how to do very basic things that comprise the core functionality of the program. Thanks for your help.

[CurtisVL]

Originally posted by IkeV:

Ok, so I tried simulator mode. I was able to figure out how to open up, set, and move windows, and have them open during game. However, I wasn't able to figure out how to interact with them, other than to move them around. I could set it so that there was a blue cursor that followed my view, but couldn't find a way to "click" it. What am I missing?

I have to be honest with you. I appreciate that you are very responsive and that you have the discord channel and the videos, but "a bit undocumented right now" is really an understatement. This entire piece of software is appallingly undocumented. I appreciate that documenting software isn't fun, and that things change, but you really need to sit down for a few hours and write up some proper user guides and documentation. And no, those old videos don't count. They're out of date, and no one wants to watch an entire video when they are trying to look something up quickly. I mentioned that I was using Voiceattack. Two of the things I love about that program are (1) the interface is clean and intuitive, and (2) it has really good documentation. There may be nothing you can do right now about the first thing. I get that VR is new technology and UIs have not been standardized yet. But there is really no excuse for the lack of documentation.

/rant off.

Sorry. I really want to like, use, and recommend this software. I haven't found anything better. But it's just too difficult to figure out how to do very basic things that comprise the core functionality of the program. Thanks for your help.

There is an entire wiki by the way!
http://wiki.ovrtoolkit.co.uk/

Though as most people don't like reading, I provide long video tutorials to explain the features of the program instead:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0kAaSEeOBA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ef8tcnEIxkw

The tutorial for Simulator Mode is work in progress as the main tutorial was only added maybe 2 or 3 weeks ago and bug fixes have been higher priority since then unfortunately!

The tabbing in/out logic is not something that would be documented I think as it's generally not something you can change besides the option to 'Tab out in edit mode' and 'Automatically tab into games' options.

I can start on the process of creating more wiki pages whilst I have some time off this weekend, what specifically would you like to see documented better? Or would a more up to date video tutorial explain it faster and better?

Oh, as for the left click, you can bind a left click bind or just click with your mouse if you have it on hand, whatever works best for you. On the settings window outside of VR there's a 'Settings' menu then 'Bindings' or something like that in the top right!
Head Gaze can be disabled entirely through the Ctrl menu if you'd prefer to use the mouse instead.

[CurtisVL]

In hindsight, I think the wiki is rather outdated, I've just had a look through some pages of it now. I remember spending a few days writing it back in maybe late 2019, but the program has changed drastically since then. The only pages I update regularly are 'Troubleshooting' and 'Oculus' as customers bring up issues that others might want to see too.

I'll add it to Trello to be updated later after I've finished some bug fixes. If you haven't figured it out I'm the sole developer, but also the sole custom support member too. A lot of work combined. :)

[CurtisVL]

What's your thoughts on tooltips by the way? Maybe a [?] next to some options in VR that aren't self-explanatory to explain what they do for example.
My own thoughts are that a little overlay could pop out next to the menu that shows that information, as it won't really fit on the main UI.

Feel free to join our Discord to discuss this further, it sounds like you have some good suggestions on ways to improve the program, it would be great to discuss these with the beta testing team and get their feedback on them too!
https://discord.gg/KFGxc3e

(/rant, apologies for the spam. Mind is flooded with potential ideas. :p)

[IkeV]

Thanks again Curtis. I do realize that you are the sole developer, and I think you've done an amazing job in a space that desperately needs a program like the one you've provided. One day this kind of functionality will probably come standard, and I think it's really exciting that you've got an opportunity to help in the development and maturity of VR technology.

I like the head gaze. It's intuitive. I like the idea of head gazing at a window and being able to use that window. Head gaze away from the windows and you're back in your game. Simple. I didn't know that you could set key bindings for left click and right click. I'll try that. Using the mouse while in the windows would probably be the most intuitive, as well as the easiest to use when you're wearing the HMD. Unfortunately I couldn't get that to work. But I will try again after work.

So, if you don't mind my further advice, I think the best thing you can do right now is update the wiki. Do that before tooltips, do that before videos, do that before tutorials. It's easier to find what you're looking for quickly than in a video, and obviously much easier to update. Once you update the wiki, you will have a better understanding of what needs to be in the tutorial and the videos. Further, it should save you time from having to repeatedly answer the same questons in the discord and the forums. I personally like tooltips, but you run the risk of having things get cluttered in virtual space.

As for which topics are most important to address, that's easy. Go through all the answers you've given people recently and see which topics come up most often. Then document how to acccomplish common tasks (how to open a window, how to select a window, how to move a window, etc), then what the different settings do. It's a deep program with a lot of functionality, but so much of it is obscure and buried.

Let me know what I can do to help. Happy to review or edit if you'd like. That's actually part of my job, so if you want another set of eyes, feel free to let me know.

[CurtisVL]

Originally posted by IkeV:

Thanks again Curtis. I do realize that you are the sole developer, and I think you've done an amazing job in a space that desperately needs a program like the one you've provided. One day this kind of functionality will probably come standard, and I think it's really exciting that you've got an opportunity to help in the development and maturity of VR technology.

I like the head gaze. It's intuitive. I like the idea of head gazing at a window and being able to use that window. Head gaze away from the windows and you're back in your game. Simple. I didn't know that you could set key bindings for left click and right click. I'll try that. Using the mouse while in the windows would probably be the most intuitive, as well as the easiest to use when you're wearing the HMD. Unfortunately I couldn't get that to work. But I will try again after work.

So, if you don't mind my further advice, I think the best thing you can do right now is update the wiki. Do that before tooltips, do that before videos, do that before tutorials. It's easier to find what you're looking for quickly than in a video, and obviously much easier to update. Once you update the wiki, you will have a better understanding of what needs to be in the tutorial and the videos. Further, it should save you time from having to repeatedly answer the same questons in the discord and the forums. I personally like tooltips, but you run the risk of having things get cluttered in virtual space.

As for which topics are most important to address, that's easy. Go through all the answers you've given people recently and see which topics come up most often. Then document how to acccomplish common tasks (how to open a window, how to select a window, how to move a window, etc), then what the different settings do. It's a deep program with a lot of functionality, but so much of it is obscure and buried.

Let me know what I can do to help. Happy to review or edit if you'd like. That's actually part of my job, so if you want another set of eyes, feel free to let me know.

Good advice!

I'll look into doing that later if I get some free time. However... I will say that times are changing and few people seem to use the wiki lately, or even know it exists, regardless of the 'Wiki' button within the program. The vast majority of people seemed to search Google or YouTube for their issue, which is why video tutorials seemed like the better option at the time. Ideally, you'd want both of course.

For the most important to address topics, I'd say the only common questions I get is:
"Why is my window 5FPS when I'm not looking at it?" (Window Settings > Eco Mode)

I guess people are stubborn and don't mention their issues, which is no help at all for finding out this stuff. Recently I integrated analytics to help improve the menu layout by moving options to the top that are used most often, though I'm still in touch with Unity Support about why their analytics service only works 5% of the time... :)

[CurtisVL]

I've updated some of the information on the wiki and it should now be more accurate to the actual settings visible in the program.

[IkeV]

Curtis, I still can't figure out how to use a window in game. If I'm in game and head tracking is on, there's a blue dot, but clicking the mouse, or pressing 'c' does nothing. If head tracking is off, then I can't even do that. Maybe I'm slow, but I still need some very basic instructions on how to do this.

[CurtisVL]

Originally posted by IkeV:

Curtis, I still can't figure out how to use a window in game. If I'm in game and head tracking is on, there's a blue dot, but clicking the mouse, or pressing 'c' does nothing. If head tracking is off, then I can't even do that. Maybe I'm slow, but I still need some very basic instructions on how to do this.

So long as the blue dot is over something, clicking should work really! Can you check on your actual desktop and ensure that window was pulled in front of the game? Also make sure nothing is set to 'Always on top' such as Task Manager or the SteamVR status window, this will usually break OVR Toolkit's ability to tab you into other programs. :)