Brabham BT46B bug

[rainmaster1994]

i feel like the car itself is bugged, it's not producing as much downforce and not fast as the lotus 79. can someone please look into this ??? i feel crazy, but the fan doesn't seem to work for it.

[Employce Mustwashands]

I think the Lotus79 was faster irl than the BT46B/C, Andretti took some pole-positions against the Brabhams when the L79 came out.

[OnlyPhans69]

ground effect peels off immediately at low speeds, which is simulated in both cars.
the BT46B wasn't faster than the lotus on paper and did not get much development, fan cars were banned pretty much instantly after it's first couple races, the speed comes from having more ground effect and therefor grip through corners, which it does in the game.

[Andrew Hollom]

I've not tried it yet, but you're right, it should be faster than the Lotus 79 (it was only out qualified in the one race it took part in because the team qualified on full tanks and hard tyres because it was so fast). Also, it wasn't banned, as it had FISA approval, it was voluntarily withdrawn by Bernie Ecclestone (then Brabham team owner) because he was busy building FOCA and using it ran the risk of fragmenting this.

[EF_Neo1st]

The "no lift off" or "less lift off" from throttle is what makes it faster, it is just an aero thing and not that it would be faster everywhere, but if you exit the turn with more speed because you did not need to reduce throttle use then you will be faster on the straight too.
It is so much that on slower turns, going with too much confidence, it is easy to spin it in relation to the Lotus (at least for me).

To me this car is a new challenge but on faster turns that would require some lift off from throttle this car really shows up the fan at effect.

[rainmaster1994]

Originally posted by EF_Neo1st:

The "no lift off" or "less lift off" from throttle is what makes it faster, it is just an aero thing and not that it would be faster everywhere, but if you exit the turn with more speed because you did not need to reduce throttle use then you will be faster on the straight too.
It is so much that on slower turns, going with too much confidence, it is easy to spin it in relation to the Lotus (at least for me).

To me this car is a new challenge but on faster turns that would require some lift off from throttle this car really shows up the fan at effect.

i don't know, i think it's just that it should be faster no matter what, even at the slow speed parts, because the fan was still on despite the reduced revs for it.

[EF_Neo1st]

Originally posted by rainmaster1994:

Originally posted by EF_Neo1st:

The "no lift off" or "less lift off" from throttle is what makes it faster, it is just an aero thing and not that it would be faster everywhere, but if you exit the turn with more speed because you did not need to reduce throttle use then you will be faster on the straight too.
It is so much that on slower turns, going with too much confidence, it is easy to spin it in relation to the Lotus (at least for me).

To me this car is a new challenge but on faster turns that would require some lift off from throttle this car really shows up the fan at effect.

i don't know, i think it's just that it should be faster no matter what, even at the slow speed parts, because the fan was still on despite the reduced revs for it.

I am also not an expert at it, but the fan seem to work with the speed and the whole aero also works with speed, maybe at lower speeds it iss not enough to make so much of an aero difference to grant noticeable extra grip but enough to spin if you dont go with care.
Maybe at low speed turns it will not do the same magic if the fan speed is also according to car+wind speed.

That is actually something I dont know, if the fan work always with the same rotation rate using an engine or if it is just there and rotates with air flow according to speed.
I am guessing it is the second, that it work with air flow according to speed.

[rainmaster1994]

Originally posted by EF_Neo1st:

Originally posted by rainmaster1994:

i don't know, i think it's just that it should be faster no matter what, even at the slow speed parts, because the fan was still on despite the reduced revs for it.

I am also not an expert at it, but the fan seem to work with the speed and the whole aero also works with speed, maybe at lower speeds it iss not enough to make so much of an aero difference to grant noticeable extra grip but enough to spin if you dont go with care.
Maybe at low speed turns it will not do the same magic if the fan speed is also according to car+wind speed.

That is actually something I dont know, if the fan work always with the same rotation rate using an engine or if it is just there and rotates with air flow according to speed.
I am guessing it is the second, that it work with air flow according to speed.

the only way we'd know is if we heard from gordon murray himself and that he'd give his own input on it.

[OnlyPhans69]

Originally posted by rainmaster1994:

Originally posted by EF_Neo1st:

The "no lift off" or "less lift off" from throttle is what makes it faster, it is just an aero thing and not that it would be faster everywhere, but if you exit the turn with more speed because you did not need to reduce throttle use then you will be faster on the straight too.
It is so much that on slower turns, going with too much confidence, it is easy to spin it in relation to the Lotus (at least for me).

To me this car is a new challenge but on faster turns that would require some lift off from throttle this car really shows up the fan at effect.

i don't know, i think it's just that it should be faster no matter what, even at the slow speed parts, because the fan was still on despite the reduced revs for it.

giving it more grip all the time would not be an accurate representation of the car which is what they are going for here, even people that drove the BT46B have said it's like any other ground effect car: a horrifying and painful experience at lower speeds.

[OnlyPhans69]

Originally posted by rainmaster1994:

Originally posted by EF_Neo1st:

The "no lift off" or "less lift off" from throttle is what makes it faster, it is just an aero thing and not that it would be faster everywhere, but if you exit the turn with more speed because you did not need to reduce throttle use then you will be faster on the straight too.
It is so much that on slower turns, going with too much confidence, it is easy to spin it in relation to the Lotus (at least for me).

To me this car is a new challenge but on faster turns that would require some lift off from throttle this car really shows up the fan at effect.

i don't know, i think it's just that it should be faster no matter what, even at the slow speed parts, because the fan was still on despite the reduced revs for it.

however it did have "more grip at lower speed" than any other car on the field at that time, but more is in relation to everyone else having none, ground effect is not magic, it wont make a car go faster (may actually reduce its top speed) it helps you carry more speed through corners, thats it.
which in my limited time driving it, it does corner at speed much more nicely than the lotus.

[Andrew Hollom]

I believe the fan was connected to the gearbox's input shaft, so its speed is proportional to the engine speed, so it should have better grip in slow corners compared to a ground-effect car which relies on air speed to generate down force. The car did sink to the ground when the engine was revved while stationary.

[EF_Neo1st]

Originally posted by Andrew Hollom:

I believe the fan was connected to the gearbox's input shaft, so its speed is proportional to the engine speed, so it should have better grip in slow corners compared to a ground-effect car which relies on air speed to generate down force. The car did sink to the ground when the engine was revved while stationary.

Yes, I made my search:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brabham_BT46

Gordon Murray designed a version driven by a complex series of clutches running from the engine to a large single fan at the back of the car, anticipating problems caused by the momentum of the fan during gear changes, although in practice these were not required. Therefore, the faster the engine ran, the stronger the suction effect.

And this:
Brabham's lead driver, Niki Lauda, realised he had to adjust his driving style, mostly for cornering. He found that if he accelerated around corners, the car would "stick" to the road as if it were on rails.[18] This had the side effect of exposing the driver to very high lateral acceleration, which would become a major problem in the ground effect era. In his autobiography, Lauda described the car as being unpleasant to drive due to the lateral loads and reliance on aerodynamics over driver skill.

This description Lauda gave, of the high lateral acceleration, I think it match what I described on the other post:

Originally posted by EF_Neo1st:

The "no lift off" or "less lift off" from throttle is what makes it faster, it is just an aero thing and not that it would be faster everywhere, but if you exit the turn with more speed because you did not need to reduce throttle use then you will be faster on the straight too.
It is so much that on slower turns, going with too much confidence, it is easy to spin it in relation to the Lotus (at least for me).

To me this car is a new challenge but on faster turns that would require some lift off from throttle this car really shows up the fan at effect.

At low speed turns it sort of want to kill me if I use as much throttle as the Lotus (at least for me), but I am not Lauda, I am just a Rookie and I could not adapt to it yet, but it also show the fan effect on low speed turns too.

[OnlyPhans69]

Originally posted by EF_Neo1st:

Originally posted by Andrew Hollom:

I believe the fan was connected to the gearbox's input shaft, so its speed is proportional to the engine speed, so it should have better grip in slow corners compared to a ground-effect car which relies on air speed to generate down force. The car did sink to the ground when the engine was revved while stationary.

Yes, I made my search:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brabham_BT46

Gordon Murray designed a version driven by a complex series of clutches running from the engine to a large single fan at the back of the car, anticipating problems caused by the momentum of the fan during gear changes, although in practice these were not required. Therefore, the faster the engine ran, the stronger the suction effect.

And this:
Brabham's lead driver, Niki Lauda, realised he had to adjust his driving style, mostly for cornering. He found that if he accelerated around corners, the car would "stick" to the road as if it were on rails.[18] This had the side effect of exposing the driver to very high lateral acceleration, which would become a major problem in the ground effect era. In his autobiography, Lauda described the car as being unpleasant to drive due to the lateral loads and reliance on aerodynamics over driver skill.

This description Lauda gave, of the high lateral acceleration, I think it match what I described on the other post:

Originally posted by EF_Neo1st:

The "no lift off" or "less lift off" from throttle is what makes it faster, it is just an aero thing and not that it would be faster everywhere, but if you exit the turn with more speed because you did not need to reduce throttle use then you will be faster on the straight too.
It is so much that on slower turns, going with too much confidence, it is easy to spin it in relation to the Lotus (at least for me).

To me this car is a new challenge but on faster turns that would require some lift off from throttle this car really shows up the fan at effect.

At low speed turns it sort of want to kill me if I use as much throttle as the Lotus (at least for me), but I am not Lauda, I am just a Rookie and I could not adapt to it yet, but it also show the fan effect on low speed turns too.

you have to accelerate on corner entry in the bt46b, there was a guage irl that told the driver if they needed to increase speed and therefore ground effect for corner entry or reduce it.
either way, it is NOT a bug, simulating something like that would/is going to take years to get done, probably will never feel the way it should in ams2 either honestly, with all the limitations the PC2 engine has for things in that regard.

[EF_Neo1st]

Originally posted by OnlyPhans69:

you have to accelerate on corner entry in the bt46b, there was a guage irl that told the driver if they needed to increase speed and therefore ground effect for corner entry or reduce it.
either way, it is NOT a bug, simulating something like that would/is going to take years to get done, probably will never feel the way it should in ams2 either honestly, with all the limitations the PC2 engine has for things in that regard.

And I did not say it is a bug, I said it is working, according to my feeling and to what I read there at wiki, as intended, but I just did not manage to adapt to it properly.

About the engine (and obviously from here on everything is my opinion according to how I see, feel and drive at all these sims and other sims I will not mention here), I dont know about these limitation in terms of aero in relation to other top sims (tho I dont know about the other sims either), but all I know is that each sim have its obvious flaws in relation to physics that each dev try to overcome the best they can, even because oour home computers can not even dream to compete to super computers of F1 teams and even these multi million dollar simulators are still a bit far from 100% to real life and may never really achieve 100%.

Maybe in like 15 to 20 years we normal people on our homes can have the same quality of simulation as what today top simulators can deliver as computer technology improve, the average computer of today is even better than a super computer from 20 years ago and that is what allow for better, more complex and accurate simulation, more computing power and obviously, more data.

What I see most of the time is that Reiza dont really have the same level of data as rF2 or ACC for all cars and also try to adjust it over development time, but I still did not notice the Madness Engine limitation in relation to the other top sims.

[rainmaster1994]

Originally posted by EF_Neo1st:

Originally posted by OnlyPhans69:

you have to accelerate on corner entry in the bt46b, there was a guage irl that told the driver if they needed to increase speed and therefore ground effect for corner entry or reduce it.
either way, it is NOT a bug, simulating something like that would/is going to take years to get done, probably will never feel the way it should in ams2 either honestly, with all the limitations the PC2 engine has for things in that regard.

And I did not say it is a bug, I said it is working, according to my feeling and to what I read there at wiki, as intended, but I just did not manage to adapt to it properly.

About the engine (and obviously from here on everything is my opinion according to how I see, feel and drive at all these sims and other sims I will not mention here), I dont know about these limitation in terms of aero in relation to other top sims (tho I dont know about the other sims either), but all I know is that each sim have its obvious flaws in relation to physics that each dev try to overcome the best they can, even because oour home computers can not even dream to compete to super computers of F1 teams and even these multi million dollar simulators are still a bit far from 100% to real life and may never really achieve 100%.

Maybe in like 15 to 20 years we normal people on our homes can have the same quality of simulation as what today top simulators can deliver as computer technology improve, the average computer of today is even better than a super computer from 20 years ago and that is what allow for better, more complex and accurate simulation, more computing power and obviously, more data.

What I see most of the time is that Reiza dont really have the same level of data as rF2 or ACC for all cars and also try to adjust it over development time, but I still did not notice the Madness Engine limitation in relation to the other top sims.

again, i just feel like alot of people are going to be frustrated with this car

[EF_Neo1st]

Originally posted by rainmaster1994:

Originally posted by EF_Neo1st:

And I did not say it is a bug, I said it is working, according to my feeling and to what I read there at wiki, as intended, but I just did not manage to adapt to it properly.

About the engine (and obviously from here on everything is my opinion according to how I see, feel and drive at all these sims and other sims I will not mention here), I dont know about these limitation in terms of aero in relation to other top sims (tho I dont know about the other sims either), but all I know is that each sim have its obvious flaws in relation to physics that each dev try to overcome the best they can, even because oour home computers can not even dream to compete to super computers of F1 teams and even these multi million dollar simulators are still a bit far from 100% to real life and may never really achieve 100%.

Maybe in like 15 to 20 years we normal people on our homes can have the same quality of simulation as what today top simulators can deliver as computer technology improve, the average computer of today is even better than a super computer from 20 years ago and that is what allow for better, more complex and accurate simulation, more computing power and obviously, more data.

What I see most of the time is that Reiza dont really have the same level of data as rF2 or ACC for all cars and also try to adjust it over development time, but I still did not notice the Madness Engine limitation in relation to the other top sims.

again, i just feel like alot of people are going to be frustrated with this car

If they are going to be frustrated because the car will not be easy to handle (exactlly because it is different from a vintage formula but also is not a more modern formula either in terms of driving, it is a beast of its own), then it is their problem, the car is what it is and if it is working accordingly to what it should, it is the same as people that get frustrated wiith a Porsche because it tend to spin too much or with anything else they dont know how to deal with.