The brake STILL isn't right

[NTU]

Just tried out the new build and it's still way too easy to lock the brakes up on some cars.

[Gerd]

That's what I'm talking about for hours. :D

That's why you have to set sensitivity at low values to not lock up the tires to soon on linear potentiometer pedals. Brakes are not linear.


English is not my native language. Maybe I'm not that good expressing myself.

[maelstrom_19]

Super Erpel původně napsal:

That's why you have to set sensitivity at low values to not lock up the tires to soon on linear potentiometer pedals. Brakes are not linear.

But 60% of total braking force (or 70%, or 80%) is the same amount of braking, no matter what hardware is used to generate it. The pedal output from your hardware might not be linear, but a particular value of braking input is read the same by the game no matter how it’s generated. The game doesn’t know how far you’re actually moving your physical brake pedal or how hard you’re pressing it, it only sees an input which it interprets as an amount of brake application.

[OlaN]

Recommend adjusting the brake pressure instead of sensibility. Using T3PA with loadcell mod, I use 70-75 pressure on most cars, nearly no pedal travel, only muscle pressure memory. Still able to lock up, but only near full force (10kg cell).

[Mahjik]

I did some testing with my setup yesterday and the current version.

First, I did have to re-calibrate my pedals. However, I shut down and restarted several times after that to see if the calibration held. I didn't have any instances losing my calibration during those shutdowns and restarts so I don't think I have that issue specifically. I'm not sure why my calibration wasn't still set from the first time I reset everything with the current version.

That being said, I tried a few different car types but nothing exhaustive. Most cars had good brake feeling but there were a few where I felt the braking with the default setup was a little too strong. One of them was the Ultima race car. While adjusting the brake pressure in the setup will make it better, I wonder if adjusting some the braking friction in the model is also needed.

Most of the other cars felt decent with the default setup in the current version with my pedal configuration, but that may not be the case for all pedal setups. I'm using the Protosimtech PT-1's and I have my brake sensitivity set to 30 (which I did lower from 35 which was my normal setting in PC2 for the Madness engine).

[NTU]

maelstrom_19 původně napsal:

Super Erpel původně napsal:

That's why you have to set sensitivity at low values to not lock up the tires to soon on linear potentiometer pedals. Brakes are not linear.

But 60% of total braking force (or 70%, or 80%) is the same amount of braking, no matter what hardware is used to generate it.

Super Erpel doesn't get this.

[vittau]

I don't know exactly how the "brake sensitivity" setting works internally, but I guess it probably applies some sort of gamma curve.
If your device requires too little travel/force to lock the tires, you should probably reduce "brake sensitivity" to adjust it to comfortable levels. There should be nothing wrong with that, as far as realism goes. Different hardware will require different curves.

[NTU]

Any curve except linear when it comes to an axis is unrealistic, reducing brake pressure on a per-car basis is broken too because the cars should brake properly without tuning.

I hope Reiza fixes the brake pedal, that's all I'm going to say. This thread has gone above and beyond ridiculous.

[vittau]

NTU původně napsal:

Any curve except linear when it comes to an axis is unrealistic

Assuming the hardware is giving readouts that are realistically linear with the applied travel/force. If it's not, you have to compensate it.

For instance a G29 pedal is very light up until it hits the rubber dampener. So, around 75% of the input requires a very light force to actuate, and then the rest is very stiff.
We have no way to know if the kind of pressure we're applying on a G29 pedal is mapping "realistically" onto the axis curve of the game, almost certainly it isn't.
A better load-cell pedal will probably output better numbers for any given force, requiring less data post-processing in game to be realistic.

[Mahjik]

Car brakes are not really linear. Even older cars without electronic brakes, there are so many components that equate to the pistons pushing on the pad to call it linear. Electronic brakes of today, absolutely not linear. With that, using "brake sensitivity" adjustments isn't wrong.

[NTU]

Mahjik původně napsal:

Car brakes are not really linear. Even older cars without electronic brakes, there are so many components that equate to the pistons pushing on the pad to call it linear. Electronic brakes of today, absolutely not linear. With that, using "brake sensitivity" adjustments isn't wrong.

Mahjik, you trolled me before but I'm considering this extremely helpful and constructive feedback as an apology for all of that. Thank you, and noted!

Question, if real brakes are really that non-linear, then does that sort of nullify what Super Erpel said about real racing drivers memorizing how much force they're applying to the brakes to know how much TO brake for specific corners?

[Mahjik]

I don't think so. The problem isn't really the brakes and whether they are linear or not. We humans adapt and learn very quickly. Pro racing drivers will get used to how a car brakes and how hard to press on the brake pedal to achieve their desired result and then that becomes part of their muscle memory.

As long as the braking in a real car is consistent, we'll get used to any behavior. ;)

[Mahjik]

BTW, for those interested, a good article on brakes:

https://www.knowyourparts.com/technical-resources/brakes-and-brake-components/from-pedal-to-pads-brake-systems-explained/

A good highlight from that discussion is this quote:

On older vehicles with a manual disc drum arrangement, the pedal ratio is 6.2:1. This means that the 70 pounds the driver has applied is now amplified to 434 pounds (6.2 × 70 pounds) of output force.

In short, real brakes are not "linear" by definition. i.e. the amount of pressure a driver's foot provides does not equal the same amount of pressure applied to the brakes. Now, it is true that as the driver applies pressure to the brake pedal, the pressure in the braking system goes up, but it's a ratio of pressure and not necessarily a constant ratio.

[NTU]

A few more serious question since you're all being extremely helpful and I greatly appreciate it:

1.) Does anyone else here think the brakes should lock at 60% on the brake axis under any circumstance, running a default vehicle setup? This is intended as a yes or no question, if you're unable to provide a simple answer, please explain why.

2.) If your answer to the above question is either no, or siding more on the "no" side of things, explain the ideal solution as if you were completely in charge of how that gets fixed.

If your answer is, "yes, the wheels should lock up at 60% brake input, if the vehicle is set at 100% braking pressure" then I think I already know your solution but I want to clarify this for sanity reasons.

Commonly proposed solution 1: Modify car setup each time or load your custom vehicle setup prior to race.

Commonly proposed solution 2: Modify your pedal settings in AMS 2 controller options menu such as decrease brake axis sensitivity.

Proposed solution 3: Buy a load cell brake to make it harder for you to reach 60% as that is too much braking input in most cases.

Do I have this right?

[Mahjik]

My 2 cents...

I don't think any car should lock the brakes at 60% of pedal travel. In a race car, they would "fix it" to make it about 85-90%. A few reasons why not to make 100% is that you want to make sure you can reach the braking threshold but you also want some margin for fatigue as well.

As for using a load cell is a solution, I don't think solves the problem (IMO). Most load cells reduce the amount of travel for the pedal so it will just make it worse. For example, with my pedals, me pressing as hard as my pedal goes shows 100% in DIview but shows around 60% inside AMS. Now, that 60% gets turned into the new 100% when I calibrate but it just demonstrates that a load cell, IMO, won't address what is being discussed.

That being said, load cells are cool so I do recommend them if they are within budget.

[vittau]

Mahjik původně napsal:

I don't think any car should lock the brakes at 60% of pedal travel. In a race car, they would "fix it" to make it about 85-90%. A few reasons why not to make 100% is that you want to make sure you can reach the braking threshold but you also want some margin for fatigue as well.

Also the locking point will be affected by how fast you're going, tire wear, temperature/pressure, and probably other things I have no idea. :P
So you definitely need some margin.