New PC - Same old performance

[James Blonde]

I've upgraded my PC over the last week from an i7 9700K, 64Gb DDR4, 3070Ti and games on an SSD, to a i9 13900K, 64Gb DDR5, (same 3070Ti) and M2 NVME for games.

But having just loaded a save game, I'm still seeing the same old 9-14fps in a small multi-town city in 1981, 24fps in a 1300 resident town with a station and public transport in the middle of the countryside

I upgraded the PC for this, Cities Skylines, and CS2 when it comes out. Honestly, I know I should have set my expectations lower, but.... still 14fps?!

I thought it was a processor limited game, not GPU, and it's not like I've got a rubbish GPU.

Any suggestions?? Is it just cos it's an old savegame and a new game will be better? Or have I just wasted the best part of £2K on nothing?

[crazy rocker]

did u make sure all the parts u put in the PC r compatable with each other? like RAM. if its not on the compatable list with the MB and CPU it will not run at full speed.
i had that problem got the wrong RAM modules and they were only running at 1800 instead of 3600. simple mistake to make as each MB and CPU combo need specific ram modules to work at full speed.

RAM will have a lot of numbers and letters and u have to check the comtabilty of the RAM with the MB maker and it will give u a list of what ram is compatable so they run at full speed.
RAM might all look the same but they all have model numbers and those have to be checked against MB combatabilty list.

go on the motherboard makers website choose the MB module u have look for their RAM combatablity list then click on the CPU u have installed and it gives a list of the compatable RAM makers and speed it will run at and the module numbers.

I got the wrong ones simply cause i wanted Corsair RGB RAM and their not on the list for my MB and CPU.

Ive got the MSI gaming edge MB with a ryzen 9 3600XT 32GB and a RTX4090 but the RAM is the bottle neck. but as everything else in my rig has RGB i wanted the RAM to be RGB as well lol.

RGB case fans. RGB PSU, RGB NVME SSD RGB water cooling RGB GPU the lot. it left a black hole where the RAM goes so wanted them RGB as well.

But not a loss cause im going to upgrade my GPU to a ryzen 9 5600x when i can afford it and my RAM is on the compatabilty list for that.

[Blackdragonbird]

Publicado originalmente por crazy rocker:

This is not the problem, the guy packed it's save with tons of suboptimal mods beyond the capacity of the game engine handling all of it.

There's no hardware that can solve this kind of issue.

The best part is that he bought a 4080 like it is going to solve the bad performance, like it is the limiting factor, when in truth, the CPU is already at it's limit having to deal with a massive quantity of game agents AND all the excess of vertices and polygons of all modded assets.

[CashonWheels]

Publicado originalmente por RadiKyle:

Publicado originalmente por CashonWheels:

The devs need to give optimized mod models a green check mark in the mod selection. Some modders do three LODs, Others just leave it at One. When things aren't built up The 3 LOD train will be using about 2% to 10% of the games resources when zoomed far out. A one LOD train will use 40% or more!

Silly question, is there an easy place we can check in a mod's files to see if it's using LODs? I mean for mods where the description doesn't say that it does?

Or, is there a way we can see how much memory each mod is using in the game while it's running? I checked the Debug windows but didn't notice anything that looked like a resource monitor.

There is no resource monitor per say, but I can narrow down troublesome mods using the debug window > draw calls and sort the %. Anything that looks out of place gets investigated. Here's an example:

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2958758811

In the screenshot above, some Locomotives' trucks (bogies) are taking up 5% of all rendering in this screenshot. Way too high for a detail you can't see. There are 8 trucks so that means there are 4 locomotives or wagons with these trucks in the screenshot. Now I need to locate them. Blomburg-Ms are locomotive trucks, That small "train 20" is a prime suspect, I know the Gp60 models pulling that train only have one LOD, So I zoom in on them.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2958758038

Right on target. Now because these are four of the six GP60s running about on the map its not much of an issue. Every other train in the first screenshot has is a mod locomotive with 3 LODs.

But what if I replace every 3 LOD locomotive with a GP60? what happens?
This:

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2958792336

now 22% of the game rendering is being used on locomotive trucks that can't be seen by the player. (+ 3% on the locomotive lights.). Now image 4 trains in this scene with 30, 1 LOD wagons each. This would chew up even more. This because an issue for the guys with 8GB of ram, and to some extent if you have 16GB ram.

As for finding the mod # go to the loading page and hover your mouse over it, that will tell you what folder its .mdl file is in.

[James Blonde]

Publicado originalmente por Blackdragonbird:

Publicado originalmente por crazy rocker:

This is not the problem, the guy packed it's save with tons of suboptimal mods beyond the capacity of the game engine handling all of it.

There's no hardware that can solve this kind of issue.

The best part is that he bought a 4080 like it is going to solve the bad performance, like it is the limiting factor, when in truth, the CPU is already at it's limit having to deal with a massive quantity of game agents AND all the excess of vertices and polygons of all modded assets.

I know, I bought it for this 1 game.... how dumb was that???? I haven't even played it that much lately!

But Its worth a pop as the returns are free ;) and it's a white 4080 which will go with my system - what's not to like?

and you know what, if it doesn't work then hey ho - I now know that the way I play the game is going to stretch the system to the limit, whatever it is. That surprises me, I thought this would be a fairly common way of playing the game and I didn't think what I was doing would be too much considering what you see on YouTube - I can modify my gameplay to suit (or not - who knows, I might continue the way I do!) but at least I know I've got as good a system as I can do. And a white 4080.

But.... here's hoping I haven't wasted my money for this one game... wonder if it'll be useful for my photography? Or video work? Or other games? Or enable me to do higher res stuff?

[Vimes]

Publicado originalmente por James Blonde:

Publicado originalmente por Blackdragonbird:

This is not the problem, the guy packed it's save with tons of suboptimal mods beyond the capacity of the game engine handling all of it.

There's no hardware that can solve this kind of issue.

The best part is that he bought a 4080 like it is going to solve the bad performance, like it is the limiting factor, when in truth, the CPU is already at it's limit having to deal with a massive quantity of game agents AND all the excess of vertices and polygons of all modded assets.

I know, I bought it for this 1 game.... how dumb was that???? I haven't even played it that much lately!

But Its worth a pop as the returns are free ;) and it's a white 4080 which will go with my system - what's not to like?

and you know what, if it doesn't work then hey ho - I now know that the way I play the game is going to stretch the system to the limit, whatever it is. That surprises me, I thought this would be a fairly common way of playing the game and I didn't think what I was doing would be too much considering what you see on YouTube - I can modify my gameplay to suit (or not - who knows, I might continue the way I do!) but at least I know I've got as good a system as I can do. And a white 4080.

But.... here's hoping I haven't wasted my money for this one game... wonder if it'll be useful for my photography? Or video work? Or other games? Or enable me to do higher res stuff?

Good for you, enjoy :)

I remember testing out a 3080Ti over that of a 3070, I'm using that card, and in some games, like Cities Skylines, the improvements were measured in single digit percentage gains. In other games like FPS type, not really bothered with those, there was a better uplift in performance.

Whether it happens to be relevant to your needs your overall system is somewhat more balanced now as a higher end gaming PC, if the games you need can utilise it.

[CashonWheels]

Publicado originalmente por James Blonde:

Publicado originalmente por Blackdragonbird:

This is not the problem, the guy packed it's save with tons of suboptimal mods beyond the capacity of the game engine handling all of it.

There's no hardware that can solve this kind of issue.

The best part is that he bought a 4080 like it is going to solve the bad performance, like it is the limiting factor, when in truth, the CPU is already at it's limit having to deal with a massive quantity of game agents AND all the excess of vertices and polygons of all modded assets.

I know, I bought it for this 1 game.... how dumb was that???? I haven't even played it that much lately!

But Its worth a pop as the returns are free ;) and it's a white 4080 which will go with my system - what's not to like?

and you know what, if it doesn't work then hey ho - I now know that the way I play the game is going to stretch the system to the limit, whatever it is. That surprises me, I thought this would be a fairly common way of playing the game and I didn't think what I was doing would be too much considering what you see on YouTube - I can modify my gameplay to suit (or not - who knows, I might continue the way I do!) but at least I know I've got as good a system as I can do. And a white 4080.

But.... here's hoping I haven't wasted my money for this one game... wonder if it'll be useful for my photography? Or video work? Or other games? Or enable me to do higher res stuff?

To simplify things your save on your old set-up is like a over-loaded train that is about to stall on a steep grade. It's speed is only 2mph and slowly dropping. Your new set-up added locomotives, now the train is still over-loaded but now going 3 mph and slowly dropping. That 2 mph to 3 mph increase in speed represents 50% increase in performance.
Your new save's will last longer and your video editing will be quicker.

[James Blonde]

and I'm happy with that.

I've always had a compromise somewhere in my system - better GPU, slightly older CPU, and vice versa. I was going to continue that with this PC, though not for financial reasons this time. But sod it, might as well take the plunge! My suspicion is it would have happened sooner rather than later.

(Though yes, the gin did play a factor in the buying decision!)

[Vimes]

I am starting to rationalise the pricing for a 4080 FE edition, still not there yet for the AIB's. A white one tho......

[RadiKyle]

Publicado originalmente por CashonWheels:

There is no resource monitor per say, but I can narrow down troublesome mods using the debug window > draw calls and sort the %. Anything that looks out of place gets investigated.

...

As for finding the mod # go to the loading page and hover your mouse over it, that will tell you what folder its .mdl file is in.

Ah thanks!! I should have known better, I did see that debug tab and looked at it quickly the other day before getting sidetracked by something else... But you give a great walkthrough of how to link what it shows to what's on the game screen. I'm def using this today! I'm de-modding a save to help with bug testing a mod, and it's been hilarious watching the performance skyrocket as I take things out. Especially enabled mods that aren't even used on the map (asset mods seem to be the worst).

Also thanks for that last tip, I never noticed that hover popup on the mod list before! I always searched the mod names in the workshop to get the mod ID, and then hunted for their folders lol.

[James Blonde]

Oooo.... OK, 4080 is in, and on the original map (Ecosse) my frame rates have effectively doubled - now getting around 30fps in the busiest areas, a lot lot more elsewhere.

Twin Cities megamap, not such a great boost. but that wasn't necessarily expected given I now better understand the size and compexity of the map and mods / assets I'm using. However having said that, I'm getting a consistent 15-20fps in the busy areas of the map, and again, a lot more elsewhere.

The big difference for me is how much smoother it is! it's playable!

What I'm also not doing now is maxing out the vRAM - 12.7 of 16gb used on the Twin Cities map. CPU is still fairly heavily loaded, but that's to be expected really, isn't it?

There is a lot of learning for me to take away from this post - thanks so much everyone for your input. Certainly a lot of stuff to look at mod and asset wise - not something I've really considered before, but overall, Honestly didn't realise I was playing the game to the extreme till now. Even then though, the performance gains on this between my old system and new are enough for me to play the game again and maybe part of my gameplay will be to enjoy paring back and reviewing how I'm using those old maps!

Plus I've now got what I'd consider a no compromise system! :D Roll on faster Word and Excel, eh? :D and Photoshop and Resolve and better running flight sim VR and hopefully improvements in my DAW if I start using that again!

[CashonWheels]

Publicado originalmente por RadiKyle:

Publicado originalmente por CashonWheels:

There is no resource monitor per say, but I can narrow

Ah thanks!! I should have known better, I did see that debug tab and looked at it quickly the .........

Also thanks for that last tip, I never noticed that hover popup on the mod list before! I always searched the mod names in the workshop to get the mod ID, and then hunted for their folders lol.

The problem with 1 lod mods are not the main bodies of the model but the trucks(bogies) and the extra details of the models Still on model despite the camera zoomed way out.

Once you home in on the correct .mdl file you are looking for visible to & visible from.

A ideal three lod mod has something like
(lod 0)
Body of wagon
Fine details of wagon
Bogie A and its wheels
Bogie B and its wheels
Visible from = 0
Visible to = ~120
-------
(Lod 1)
Less detailed Body of wagon
The fine details are removed
Less detailed Bogie A and it's wheels
Less detailed Bogie B and it wheels
Visible from = 120
Visible to = ~400
-------
(Lod 2)
A box that resembles the wagon
A very low detailed bogie A & and its now square wheels.
A very low detailed bogie B & and its now square wheels.
Visible from = 400
Visible to = ~1800

A one LOD mod is like the GP60:
(Lod 0)
Body of Locomotive
Lights
Cab interior
Bogie A and its wheels
Bogie B and its wheels
Visible from =0
Visible to =1700
All of this renders even if your camera is high in the sky.

Clever modders bolt on bogies of vanilla vehicles for lods 1 and 2. You won't be able to tell the diffrence anyways.

Remodeling locomotives is pain, but I'll try to remodel the GP60 so I can it use in higher quantities.

[Tsubame ⭐]

All the following on my main rig, 12900K, 3090 RTX, 64 GB RAM:

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2959000906

Performs very well everywhere, fast forward unaffected.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2959001724
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2959002038

Significant boost from 11700/3060ti, plays smoothly on normal speed, though no fast forward. No video related lag for me.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2959019335
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2959019795

Also significant boosts, normal speed, fast forward works though is slowed down. Attempts to increase population to 60k+ are met with massive simulation slowdowns; a difference between the map above and this one is this one has a significantly larger road network; also all cities barring some small isolated towns are integrated by road.

This is the only map that has the occasional video related lag; mostly on this area and when zoomed out, though this has been reduced post-updated.

These are all in the largest and most developed areas of the respective maps; performance in less crowded developed areas improves noticeably.

[Tsubame ⭐]

Publicado originalmente por James Blonde:

Oooo.... OK, 4080 is in, and on the original map (Ecosse) my frame rates have effectively doubled - now getting around 30fps in the busiest areas, a lot lot more elsewhere.
<snip>
Plus I've now got what I'd consider a no compromise system! :D Roll on faster Word and Excel, eh? :D and Photoshop and Resolve and better running flight sim VR and hopefully improvements in my DAW if I start using that again!

Makes sense given your love for large regions and mods.

And yes, a GPU upgrade may go a long way to increase performance in this game.

And a 4080 is a significant step up from a 3070.

Happy it worked out for you.

[RadiKyle]

Publicado originalmente por CashonWheels:

Once you home in on the correct .mdl file you are looking for visible to & visible from.

A ideal three lod mod has something like
(lod 0)
...

Thanks, this helped quite a bit. I also found I can open a model in the model editor and see its LODs there too. Just discovered that a number of mods I've been using are 1GB+ each and single LOD 😲 This explains much, lol 🤦‍♂️ Pruning time!

[crazy rocker]

Publicado originalmente por Tsubame ⭐:

Publicado originalmente por James Blonde:

Oooo.... OK, 4080 is in, and on the original map (Ecosse) my frame rates have effectively doubled - now getting around 30fps in the busiest areas, a lot lot more elsewhere.
<snip>
Plus I've now got what I'd consider a no compromise system! :D Roll on faster Word and Excel, eh? :D and Photoshop and Resolve and better running flight sim VR and hopefully improvements in my DAW if I start using that again!

Makes sense given your love for large regions and mods.

And yes, a GPU upgrade may go a long way to increase performance in this game.

And a 4080 is a significant step up from a 3070.

Happy it worked out for you.

the 4080 is a rebadged 3070TI. Nvidia pulled swifty.

only card in the 40 series that is new is the 4090. the rest r just rebadged from older cards.

EVGA blew the whistle on what Nvidia were doing and stopped making Nvidia cards.
They scrapped the 4090's they had made and refused to sell them. they only have stock to replace the 30 series cards that need replacing under warranty and not going to make any more. the 4060 is a 1080TI with DLSS and ray tracing added to it. the 4070 is a 3060TI. its all smoke and mirrors. they added bigger casing and bigger cooling and a new power plug to fool everyone.

They added drivers to fool benchmarks and FPS counters to make it look like they were faster.

EVGA r now trying to see if they can partner with Intel or AMD to make cards for them and have ripped up their partnership with Nvidia. they anouced it in a press release just before the 4090 went on sale.
Plus Nvidia was ripping them off on the price of the chips to put in their cards and they were losing money making GPU with the Nvidia chips in them.

To make a profit selling Nvidia cards they would of had to double the price.

the other makers r also considering leaving Nvidia.

Lots of shop have their stocks full of 4080 as they cant sell them so they might put the prices down and lose money just to get rid of them.

Ive only every used Nvidia but when my 4090 needs replacing im going for AMD Radion.