Train length and stations

[lemming3k]

I'm surprised not to have seen this before, but I have a 160m station and added the 4-4-0 General with 14 wagons. The length shows as 157m (Wagons 10m each and 17m for the engine) but it cannot turn around in the station.
I'm assuming the buffers take up 5m or something so it's marginally overhanging and I've just never had this consist length before. Anyone able to confirm? Are the buffers 5m?

[gameblogger]

The only thing that I can think of that would prevent the train from turning around in the station is a lack of available path.

[lemming3k]

Originally posted by gameblogger:

The only thing that I can think of that would prevent the train from turning around in the station is a lack of available path.

Well, that is the error, but the train length displayed is smaller than the station length so as far as I'm aware it shouldn't be an issue.
I don't think I'm missing anything obvious here, unless the displayed length is incorrect, or the buffers on the track are not just a pretty feature....

[gameblogger]

Can I see your track layout?

[lemming3k]

I don't have a screenshot right now but it's a standard double track with stations at each end. A>B, nothing fancy.
I've just finished a few tests and it happens with both terminus and normal stations, and regardless of station length.
With normal stations I added track on the ends (thus moving the buffers out of the station), and this allowed the train to use more track space and turn successfully at one station, but at the other it continued to stop short as if the buffers were still present. That would seem to be a bug, but I believe the rest is by design.

Tests were ran on a fresh, unmodded game, so I'm ruling out mods as a cause. I also re-built the stations several times and it did not resolve the issue on affected stations.

For reference:
I was unable to get any trains that were 157m-160m to turn in a 160m station with buffers present. Some trains that were 156m worked, but not all of them. I tried different engines and consists to try and rule out length display issues specific to engines or wagons; so it definitely isn't this either.
I'm presuming at this point that the reason some 156m trains work but not others is that the actual lengths aren't in whole numbers and there is some rounding on the display that we can't see - so 156m is displayed for trains just under 156m that can successfully turn, but it also displays 156m for those just over 156m that cannot turn. Perhaps there is another explanation though.
155 or less works every time. It does appear from this that the buffers take up 4m of track space in stations, but also that there is a bug with trains not always using the full track where possible - You'd only spot this however if you used a regular station as a terminus and had track on both sides, which in a real game scenario is unlikely.
I'll see if I can add some screenshots tomorrow, but you're welcome to see if you get the same results.

[Vimpster]

I did notice on terminus stations that the train didn't fully enter the station. Probably because of the buffer you speak of. This has never been an issue for me though since I never put switches immediately outside of a station, so having my trains be hanging out of the station does not cause problems for me.

[gameblogger]

Originally posted by lemming3k:

I don't have a screenshot right now but it's a standard double track with stations at each end. A>B, nothing fancy.
I've just finished a few tests and it happens with both terminus and normal stations, and regardless of station length.
With normal stations I added track on the ends (thus moving the buffers out of the station), and this allowed the train to use more track space and turn successfully at one station, but at the other it continued to stop short as if the buffers were still present. That would seem to be a bug, but I believe the rest is by design.

Tests were ran on a fresh, unmodded game, so I'm ruling out mods as a cause. I also re-built the stations several times and it did not resolve the issue on affected stations.

For reference:
I was unable to get any trains that were 157m-160m to turn in a 160m station with buffers present. Some trains that were 156m worked, but not all of them. I tried different engines and consists to try and rule out length display issues specific to engines or wagons; so it definitely isn't this either.
I'm presuming at this point that the reason some 156m trains work but not others is that the actual lengths aren't in whole numbers and there is some rounding on the display that we can't see - so 156m is displayed for trains just under 156m that can successfully turn, but it also displays 156m for those just over 156m that cannot turn. Perhaps there is another explanation though.
155 or less works every time. It does appear from this that the buffers take up 4m of track space in stations, but also that there is a bug with trains not always using the full track where possible - You'd only spot this however if you used a regular station as a terminus and had track on both sides, which in a real game scenario is unlikely.
I'll see if I can add some screenshots tomorrow, but you're welcome to see if you get the same results.

I need to see what you're working with so a screenshot or savegame would be best.

[coenvijge]

You are using mods?

[Metssr]

Can it be you have some switches direct next to the staion on which the train has to take the other track?

[lemming3k]

Originally posted by Vimpster:

I did notice on terminus stations that the train didn't fully enter the station. Probably because of the buffer you speak of. This has never been an issue for me though since I never put switches immediately outside of a station, so having my trains be hanging out of the station does not cause problems for me.

Perhaps it's a bad habit, but I always put my switches there. I had thought it easier to be consistent with train length as it removes the guesswork of how far the switches are from the station, and that they might not all be the same distance without some trial and error.
Though I probably only ever added one wagon at a time to trains to adjust for rate until it balances, or until I get the error then just removed a wagon or extended the station to resolve.
I imagine a lot of other people play the same and use the same resolutions, or move their switches to resolve, so I wondered if anyone had noticed it when looking at the stats.

I suppose it is also a small window of train length to reproduce the problem, and with different regions having unique wagons and engines maybe it's a coincidence that I've never built a 157-160m train, or if I did it obviously had an overhang for me to remove so I never checked the length.
It's the first time I've actually planned a train by looking at its length before purchasing and fully expected it to fit and was surprised it didn't.

The tests were really interesting to see it appears to be the buffers. I don't suppose switch placement changes the outcome, your train is still 4m shorter than you would expect.

[lemming3k]

Here are the screenshots from the test track. All stations for this test are 160m.

Train length 156;

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2629537051

Overview of test route (same as live);

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2629535981

Right station with buffers showing error;

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2629536146

Right station with extended track to move buffers. The train now uses the whole station and does not error;

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2629536300

Left station with buffers showing error;

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2629536473

Left station with extended track to move buffers. The train is still stopping short as if the buffers are present and showing the error;

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2629536655

So it seems the buffers are taking 4m, but also the left station has a bug with the train stopping short. The only mods in use are Urban Games 'no money' and 'all vehicles' since this was a test. Neither are in use on actual games where I see this.

[gameblogger]

Shift the turnout slightly further away from the stations. Place a signal on each side of the turnout (they must face each other).

[lemming3k]

Originally posted by gameblogger:

Shift the turnout slightly further away from the stations. Place a signal on each side of the turnout (they must face each other).

I think you might have missed the point slightly. As mentioned previously I'm aware there are several modifications that would allow the train the turn - although the signals are not one of them as only two are required to force a one-way system, one on each side going in opposite directions - which is exactly what is present.

Fundamentally it is a 156m train in a 160m station that cannot turn, so it appears the buffers *must* be taking up space to the tune of 4m or the train would never overhang the platform. There's nothing wrong with that per se, but I haven't seen any previous observations on it and I hadn't seen it before.
Without the buffers present the train does in one instance use the full available space to turn successfully, but not in the other instance. This specifically appears to be a bug.

I guess in a way people have provided an answer as to why nobody seems to have observed either scenario previously as it becomes more about solving the problem than taking account of the train length.
I guess this is now more of an informational thread, unless anyone has noticed anything different. There should be enough here for others to test if they desire.

[lost]

The buffers do, indeed, take up space. I noticed it quite some time back the same way - with a 160 metre train. I just shrugged and decided keeping trains a bit shorter than the platforms was the solution.

[Metssr]

Again, just be sure you put your switches about 10 meters out of the station, just to avoid this problem. Even when a train is already in the station and trying to turn and the error occurs, you just remove the switch and place it again 10 meters further. The train wil love you and get starting up again.

[lemming3k]

Originally posted by Metssr:

Again, just be sure you put your switches about 10 meters out of the station, just to avoid this problem. Even when a train is already in the station and trying to turn and the error occurs, you just remove the switch and place it again 10 meters further. The train wil love you and get starting up again.

In the past that would have been one of several instinctive solutions I'd have used. But I'm glad I looked into it further as it's really not necessary. What's important in any scenario is knowing the max length of a train; which contrary to what most people might have thought(myself included) is actually 'station length -4m' in cases where the switch is immediately on the station. Or in your case, 'station length +10m to switch -4m'. I'd play it safe and use 5m due to rounding issues though.

Also can you consistently place switches at 10m out or is that visual/guesswork? If there's a risk you might be at 9m or 11m for example then you wouldn't be able to reliable judge the max train length. It might actually be easier to place them directly on the station and use the formula above instead.