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https://www.reddit.com/r/TransportFever/comments/eb2775/truckbus_station_routing_demystified_an/?rdt=34045
For costs, I can save you some time: within each vehicle type (road, rail, etc), all vehicles use the same cost and income models. So there are no "good" or "bad" vehicles. The only thing that changes is the scale -- they get faster/bigger -- but the costs and income still scale proportionally.
For rail, wagon cost is based on rate ( = capacity X speed). Loco cost is just an overhead cost for the train, and is based on power (plus a minor bit on speed, but only matters at really high speeds). So you want the cheapest/fewest locos possible.
Income is based on the top speed limit of the vehicle, so the most important thing is that the loco top speed limit is >= the wagon speed limit.
The performance gives the actual average speed on the map, which affects the total throughput (total income). How much power you need depends on the situation (frequent start/stops, climbing hills, etc). But freight trains can pull some really long trains even with "Poor" rating. It tends to be a bigger issue at busy stations where slow moving trains get in each others' way.
The best fit is often more about constraints like station size or line congestion, and you really need to try different ones to see how they do in your situation, and for your game style.
For example the BR E 94 with 363 kn to 3000 kw is a cargo-lok. On the other side the A4 ca. 2000 kw and 160 kn is a passanger train. Because you need two of them for the same traction. And for cargo traction is better than speed.
But both.. traction and speed are values for the costs they have. So a lok with 1.000 kw, 10 kn and 200 mph can have the same value than a lok with 800 kw, 200 kn and 100 mph. But the first is unuseable for cargo.
The rating is a strange thing. For example: acceleration of 140sec for a train which has 100 mph is better than acceleration of 85 sec for 50 mph. But the rating says its worse. I think the rating caolculates the time to max speed but is ignoring the top-speed difference and that its for the performance of a line more important to leave the station fast then reach the top-speed fast. Both is not the same. So i look how long the acceleration is and not how the game rates it.
I play with mods and i play EPEC with as long distances as possiilbe between stations. So i calculate: highest freight ability per line.. not per train. Because having a train with huge cargo but long time in the station will limit the amount of trains i can use on the line and so reduce the cargo transported over time, while the train itself should increase it. this is also why i look often on traction, because its better to use some waggons less and add another train than using max. waggons but reduce the amount of trains (in a small span of course).
thanks i wrote the redit... omg.. who has made this crime of pathfinding? They improve the traffic ai but they ignore these mess of a hell? And its simple to solve... you can give a line (like signals for trains) in a station a path they must follow.
The transition speed from traction-limited acceleration to power-limited acceleration is very low (generally ~10 km/h, but you can calculate it for any train by dividing power by T.E.). Most trains reach this speed very quickly, so you can pretty much ignore tractive effort and just use the power rating as an indicator of acceleration. [EDIT: see correction post later in thread...]
And that's probably why the cost of all locos is based on power.
So in your example, the 800 kw locomotive would be roughly 20% cheaper than the 1000 kw locomotive, as the other variables are pretty much not considered at all. In your example I would probably go with the 1000 kw locomotive even for cargo. And because it has lower kn then it probably means it weighs less (conventionally high tractive effort comes from additional weight) which would give it an even greater power to weight ratio, which is very important.
From what I recall with a conversation with one of the developers the tractive effort value raises the minimum speed that a train can maintain while climbing an incline, and it gives it a short boost to acceleration upto something like 20 kph, after which it has no affect on the trains acceleration. As such I pay very little attention to that value unless it is a very long and steep climb where I know the train is going to be brought down to it's minimum speed.
In a short test the 9 PLM with 675 kn against 2 A3 with 384 KN the A3 needed 5km to get the PLM. Same weight and kw... and the A3 only get them because they could reach 100 km/h... the PLM was limited to 60.
The reason was that the PLM stats faster and so gets faster to the area were kw counts. So the A3 had no chance to get the PLM without the speed difference.
Is their a difference between the engines?
Because i tested an electric against a steam train and the electric had a bit worse kn and kw with the same topspeed and weight but more cargo because of the weight and the electric reached the same rate.
FWIW, the locos have a secondary cost factor based on speed too, just like wagons (and therefore multi-unit trains). But it's only noticeable for really fast ones, and in-game it only means we pay a little bit extra for high-speed trains. Details:
https://steamcommunity.com/app/1066780/discussions/0/4556037123800442766/?ctp=2#c4516632589451233436
Yeah there's a thread around here from ~2022 where we tested the Baldwin 6-wheeler hauling an insane amount of wagons up a hill, and it bottomed out at 3 km/h I think. So the code definitely has an artificial floor in it to prevent trains from stalling out and rolling backwards. That means it has effectively unlimited/infinite tractive effort up to that "floor speed". I don't think we tested it with different locos to see if it varies, but it sounds like the devs are saying it probably does. Either way, it's an extra reason that reduces the relevance of tractive effort in this game.
Just correcting / clarifying my quoted post... I've been playing the early steam era way too much, where the traction speed doesn't change a lot. But looking across all loco eras and types, it definitely varies. History saw loco power increase much more than tractive effort (which is largely based on weight like @Vimpster mentioned), so tractive speed generally increased as the decades went by, and the variation became more scattered. Chart:
https://imgur.com/a/6KlF8Hm
So the speed range where acceleration is traction-limited (between the artificial floor speed and the traction speed) can be wider and more significant for some locos, generally moreso in later decades.
Buttttt, that doesn't mean they perform worse! It just means that the power limit is reached at a higher speed. It could still have very strong acceleration while traction-limited, especially with good traction-to-weight ratio like @Vimpster suggested.
Income formula for cargo and passengers *is the same*, except cargo gets 1.75X bonus:
https://www.reddit.com/r/TransportFever/comments/ztpldt/update_payment_formula/?rdt=48998
This helps offset the fact that many freight lines are one-way only (empty on return trip) while all passenger lines are round-trip by default.
The "ticket prices" for both cargo and pax pay based on the vehicle's *top speed limit*, so it's equally important to both. But it will always be limited by the wagon's top speed limit if you pick suitable locomotives. This is why it's so valuable to upgrade as soon as faster wagons are available (and matching locos).
Also note that mod vehicles can have some very imbalanced specs compared to vanilla ones.
I heared that passagners get a bonus. As later the game, then more money they gain. But i am not sure about it and its not in these calculations.
How is the speed calculated? Is it the fastest posible speed, the practical driven speed? For example: i do a 360 km/h train on a 300 km/h track which drives max. 200 km/h because of the lengh of the track. Which is the speed the game uses? I think its the theoretical max. speed of the train and not the driven speed or the trackspeed.
So to my question:
It does not matter which train i use. The difference is only how many trains i use for the same result and so how long the train is. A stronger lok need less lengh for loks than a weaker lok and can use more waggons. But this effect is small.
And if it does not matter from the maintance and power aspect which train you use. Does it matter from the income side, because speed is their a factor. So it is better to use a fast cargotrain with lesser power instead of more power and lower speed because theoretical speed (not the practical driven) gives more money.
I do not know if the developers calculate these physical correct. But from the physical aspect kn is falling fast in its effect. The formular here is
practical kw = theoretic kw / driven speed
If practical kw is smaller than kn, then kn counts.
For example: 1000 kw, 100 kn
If the train has less then 10 km/h it will accelerate with 100 kn. But if its faster, it will accelerat with 1.000 kw / driven speed. So the acceleration is getting smaller and smaller with higher speed.
The BR 103.1 with 312 kn and 7.440 kw will accelerate with 312 kw until it reaches 23,4 km/h. And then with 7.440 / driven speed. This means 11,7% of the acceleration is kn relevant (longer brause its not linear, but i can not calculate this fast and also i do not know how the developers calculate the speedcap and how it works if the speedcap is limited by waggons).
the prussian G3 instead with 50 kn and 200 kw will use kn till 4km/h, this is 10%.
Nearly all trains use traction for arround 10% of their acceleration time and then power.
And so you can see really easy when kw counts and when kn.
No. Read the link I posted, which has the actual income formula from the developers, instead of speculating about what it might be.
Because they have a very high *top speed limit*.
And income is also based on distance between stations (straight-line 3D distance), so if you put those pax trains on longer routes then they can earn more.
No. This does not exist. See the link.
Again, like it says at the link and already posted here, the speed in the ticket price formula is the *top speed limit* of the entire train: the loco or wagon speed limit, *whichever is lower*.
If wagon speed is 80 km/h and loco is 100 km/h, the limit is still 80 km/h.
If the loco is 65 km/h, then the limit is 65 km/h.
Track speed limit is irrelevant for ticket price.
Actual speed achieved on the map is irrelevant for ticket price.
Those speeds will affect how many trips you achieve per year however, and therefore the annual income. But they have no effect on the income paid *per unit delivered* ("ticket price").
Yes. There might be a small load speed penalty if the train is longer than the platform length. You're correct it's usually a small effect.
If you mean 2 weak locos vs 1 strong one, with the same total power, then yes that's correct, the maintenance cost is the same. This makes it easy to manage.
And it can give a use for some old locos if you want to keep using them instead of buying new ones. Because locos last forever (there is no life limit in the game), then there is no need to stop using them.
Buttttt, if newer wagons+locos have a higher top speed limit, then it's worth upgrading for the higher ticket prices, which means more net income.
(Typo: "practical *kN*" not kW.)
Yes, that's what I've been writing about in all these replies lol... "Traction-limited acceleration" vs "power-limited acceleration". The *traction speed* where it transitions from one to the other is = power / tractive effort.
Did you look at the chart I linked? It shows the "traction speed" for every vanilla loco in the game.
So like we've already answered, trains in the game often reach that traction speed so quickly that tractive effort doesn't matter much, and the power limit is more useful for acceleration performance.
Look, physics is still physics, so yes locos with more power and even more tractive effort will accelerate quicker, always. But quicker acceleration does not necessarily mean a big increase in the line's rate and therefore more income (for trains limited by wagon speed). Especially on busy/congested tracks. And because more power has more maintenance costs, then you don't want to add more power unless it increases the total annual volume enough to pay for it.
And there is no formula to answer that question, because every route is different. Sometimes more power will pay off, sometimes not. It depends a lot on track congestion with other trains, on track speeds, on track gradients, on the number of stops... You have to test it to see the effect.
I do it this way, but this is just me: if a train can't reach 25~30 km/h (or its traction speed) by the time it clears the station, it's too slow. (Unrealistic maybe, but it's a game.) So I add power if I can.
Similarly, if a train reaches its top speed limit not long after leaving the station, I don't add more power. It might actually have too much already lol 🙈
If a station is heavily congested with trains blocking each other, I might add power if it helps improve the flow. Sometimes it works.
When a more powerful loco is released, I might test one on the line to see if it yields more net income. If it does, then I upgrade all the locos on that line.
So it still requires trying things to try what happens. It's still just a game.
Hope that helps!
Faster but lower capacity vehicles may generate more revenue than slower vehicles with higher capacities simply by virtue of being faster, hence airplanes being a decent source of income even though capacities are much smaller than trains.
Fastest speed possible in any given line is based on the SLOWEST limiting factor; a locomotive with 200 km/h top speed will only be able to do 100 km/h if using wagons with a top speed os 100 km/h. And of course, track speeds and line length available for acceleration also affects the speed, curves may hinder fast trains from attaining full speed, the line may not be long enough, or may not have enough straight segments, to allow the train to achieve their maximum speeds, slow tracks used instead of high speed tracks, and so on.
Because of their higher maintenance fees, faster vehicles should only be used if they can make use of the maximum speed, and as result, require longer lines. If a vehicle cannot get close to their maximum speed in a line, then chances are using a slower vehicle will be better, economically.
Longer trains are desired if you do not want to double track or segregate lines - i.e. frequency constraints.
For example: public traffic gets profitable if you can carry i think 5 waggons full in both directions. That are arround lets say 40 people. So 40 people in both turns make a passanger train profitable. Thats only an example.
I am playing on very hard. So i get 40% cash instead of 100%. And here comes the problem:
A passanger train on very hard will make, if allways full, 60% of the cash a cargo-train does allways full (100%/1,75= 0,57). But a cargo-train with 60% full (one run full, the run back 20% full) will on very hard NEVER make cash. It will cost more than it is earning.
So depending on this a passanger train on very hard can NEVER be profitable. But it is... so why? And speed is not the reason i think, because as you said the factor is small and on the other hand until you have multiple units and highspeed-tracks, the difference of speed between cargo and passanger is not so high. in the early- and midgame.
I think you might be forgetting the max-speed factor. For almost all the game, passenger trains (can) have a much better max-speed than cargo. Even now, my game is in the 1940's and my pax trains have a max speed of 145, versus 80 for cargo.
Also, at least for the way I play, my pax trains are never idle for very long, whereas most of my cargo trains have "load all - infinite" settings. They spend a much larger percentage of their time loading.
I think that also, at least in my maps, pax lines are much shorter and therefore the frequency is much faster - meaning that I can shift a whole lot more pax in a year than I can cargo for a given train.
Cheers,
Chris.
P.S. Just adding to the above, revenue is only half the equation. The costs per train is the other half. For example, I really love the Hiawatha loco. But I can rarely use it because the maintenance is so high. It really doesn't give me much advantage over the Class A4 (which is an ugly beast), but the extra .7Mill annual maintenance is such that on most lines, it turns a nice profit into a small loss.