a little help understanding supply chain

[VayneVerso]

Sorry, all. Still figuring this out. I went through most of the first chapter of the campaign, but wanted to try a sandbox game. So here I am. Something simple to start. Mining rocks at the quarry and sending them over to the construction materials factory and delivering to the nearby city.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2339445218

This may not be the smartest way to set this up, but just bear with me.

Truck stop at the quarry: my cargo carriages loaded 125 units in the previous year.

Midpoint exchange: carriages only unloaded 24 of those units, and 24 units were loaded back up for the next leg to the factory.

Factory stop: carriages unloaded 20 of the 24 that were loaded at the exchange, but I'm going to assume that's merely owing to travel time.

Cargo drop in the city: Only 3 units of construction materials were unloaded there last year.

This last one is the real mystery to me. I mean, I tried to put the cargo drop right where the materials were needed, but maybe I messed something up. Still...

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2339481501

Where did all the extra stone go that was picked up from the quarry? I think maybe the factory is looking at demand from the city and seeing that they're only requesting about 20, so the excess stone gets sold at the cargo exchange?

Where did all my construction units go? Why are they seemingly not making it to the city even though I see them getting onto trucks and sent there? Or am I misunderstanding something?

When you click on a city to see what they demand and it shows you something like 4/24, is the 4 what they have in storage? Or is that what has been delivered this year?

[Ideas Man]

You can only deliver enough goods to a city to meet its demand. Once its demand is satisfied, you can't deliver further goods to that city until the next demand cycle.

TF2 changed the demand system from TF1 in that every link in the chain responded to the final demand and balanced accordingly. In TF2, the raw industries will keep pumping out goods to their processing industries, regardless of the demand the processing industry needs to fulfil.

It's not so much lost as it will be accumulated somewhere, usually at the processing industry in its stockpile. The game also takes into account goods in transit, so as you cannot transport goods instantly from industry to town, there are still goods in transit which will fulfil a demand in some future cycle and thus they will eventually make it to the city to fulfil demand.

Look at it another way. You're being paid to move the goods. Leave it at that and continue developing the rest of the transport network. Too many people focus on things like this and convince themselves they need to start fighting the game to work the way they believe it should work.

If you want to increase the production from your processing industries, grow the cities it currently delivers to or add additional cities to deliver the processing industry's goods to. You appear to only have a few trucks delivering construction materials, add a few more one at a time and see how it affects things. The rate of this line influences the demand of the lines feeding it as they'll need to increase to keep up with the final demand into the city.

When you click on a city to see what they demand and it shows you something like 4/24, is the 4 what they have in storage? Or is that what has been delivered this year?

4 is the number units of that particular good you have successfully delivered to fulfil its demand for that cycle. You can still transport a further 20 units in that cycle before it's fully fulfilled. Keep in mind, that figure is city wide and unless you have freight drop offs to cover all of the buildings demanding that good, it will deceive you as you can only fulfil the buildings within your delivery coverage areas. In your screenshot, you appear to have that so what you need to do is add more trucks to the city delivery line to increase that number and adjust the feeder lines accordingly to satisfy its demand.

[genemead]

Also remember that with TF2 it changed several things: "completing the chain" is NOT necessary. As Ideas Man said, "You're being paid to move the goods. Leave it at that and continue developing the rest of the transport network."

In other words (in your case) take the Stone to the Construction Material plant- get paid. You don't have to take any Construction Material to the Industrial part of the city. If you do, you'll get paid. If you don't, there's other things you can do to make money.

People seem obsessed with "completing the chain", even if it means making less (or losing) money. You can make good money just hauling raw materials to a factory. Don't worry about taking any products to the city unless it's profitable. In fact, you don't have to transport any goods to any city!!! Sure, if you do it helps the city grow, but you don't have to.

[VayneVerso]

Thanks, all. The problem with the building supplies resolved itself pretty much right after I posted this, so I guess it was just a matter of the game not having enough time yet to attain a fully mature delivery line to the city.

I'm going to take some time to digest what you all have said, but I believe I'm getting the hang of how things are working. I've never played a game like this before. City builders, yes. But not supply chain/logistics.

I'm sure I'm doing a lot of things incorrectly, but I've got the general idea and I've been impressed by how the game manages to generally make good decisions about how units get delivered. The campaign has been useful, but sandbox is really where it's at for just figuring things out.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2339925508

Perhaps not the way you veterans would do things, but everything is getting where it should and in a month without a lot of investment, it's at least profitable. I'll take that as a start and see where it goes.

[ClearchusOfSparta]

Another tip for balancing the lines. If you click on the supplier building for example a quarry. You can see how much its producing. The blue bar at the top. For example 200. Now look at the line transporting stone. It will give you a yearly rate. Try to add vehicles until this rate matches the output of the quarry. Assuming 5he stone goes direct to a con mats factory, you can now examine the factory to see how much consumer demand you have going to each city. Try to match your delivery rates on the line going to these cities as you did with the quarry line. Bear in mind that once your city demand exceeds the output of your con mats factory, you will need to deliver stone from a second quarry.

[VayneVerso]

Originally posted by ClearchusOfSparta:

Another tip for balancing the lines. If you click on the supplier building for example a quarry. You can see how much its producing. The blue bar at the top. For example 200. Now look at the line transporting stone. It will give you a yearly rate. Try to add vehicles until this rate matches the output of the quarry. Assuming 5he stone goes direct to a con mats factory, you can now examine the factory to see how much consumer demand you have going to each city. Try to match your delivery rates on the line going to these cities as you did with the quarry line. Bear in mind that once your city demand exceeds the output of your con mats factory, you will need to deliver stone from a second quarry.

Yeah, that's how I'm handling steel production. The construction materials were the first thing I did, so I just threw a bunch of trucks at the quarry, because I didn't feel like taking the time to optimize it, and the campaign was always very forgiving about playing that way.

The thing that surprised me though was that my cargo carriages were clearly picking up way more stone than was needed at the construction materials factory, but a lot of it never seemed to get offloaded. If I'm understanding correctly, what they're actually doing is just selling the excess... somewhere. The trucks would earn a profit upon delivering to the mid-point exchange when it was overflow, and in fact, the entire line seems to be profitable. So those stones get used by somebody. Just not by me.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2340522826

[VayneVerso]

Originally posted by genemead:

People seem obsessed with "completing the chain", even if it means making less (or losing) money. You can make good money just hauling raw materials to a factory. Don't worry about taking any products to the city unless it's profitable. In fact, you don't have to transport any goods to any city!!! Sure, if you do it helps the city grow, but you don't have to.

I'll admit that I didn't fully realize that. In the campaign, you're always completing the chain, so that's just how I was trained to play, really. And I thought it made sense, because from the way it looks on the surface, the output of the factories seems to be based upon the demand they're fulfilling. And whatever demand is being fulfilled is only obvious when you're actually the one delivering it to the cities.

This is useful information, though. I'll experiment with running some lines that don't have an ultimate endpoint in a city and see how those work. Because I'll confess that I was looking at this sandbox map and thinking my options were pretty limited. It's like, City A wants machines, but the factory is all the way on the other side of the map. To complete the chain would be in no way profitable with most of these things.

[BryGuy]

TheWatcherUatu, I'm in the same boat as you. I did campaigns 1-6 then jumped into sandbox. Still figuring out the numbers, but . . . I've learned to just make $ first, and most of my wealth is coming from hauling raw materials. I went from 1 mil in debt w/ 9 mil loan and about to end that test game, to now, no loan and 780+ mil in the bank. Mostly hauling raw mats, and people. I'll focus on supplying the cities more soon.
What keeps confusing me a bit is some of the dialog box labels. I think I need to make myself a few cheat sheets to bridge the info gap. More mouse over tips would help too.
I've also learned to start a new mat/line slowly. Buy a couple trucks, then a short train only 2-3 cars, then grow it as the network grows.
I'm also starting to optimize my lines by removing tight curves, going double, and avoiding long slopes. All helps bring in more $. The slow/average performance arcs in the charts shows it. Have fun, I sure am. :)

[Vimpster]

Factories will start with a minimum demand of 100-200 (depending on the specific factory in question) of whatever cargo items they use to make their product. So for instance a Construction Material plant will straight away create a demand of 100 stone per year. So even if you don't try to supply any towns with bricks you will be able to continually ship 100 stone to the factory, just as genemead said.

However if you want to send more stone to the factory, than the factory will need to level up. Factories only level up if you actually find a demand for the products they can make. So if you were to find as much as 100 demand for bricks by locating and setting up a delivery route to towns that demand that cargo, then the Construction Material factory will upgrade to level 2 and now demand up to 200 stone per year. Once again if you can find up to 200 demand for bricks than the factory will be able to upgrade again. All industries cap at a production of 400 and a demand of 400-800 for any resources they consume, depending on the consumption ratio.

Most intermediate factories consume at a 2:1 ratio. Construction material factories only consume at a 1:1 ratio though, so 1 stone makes 1 brick. A Food factory on the other hand consumes 2 grain to make 1 food. So even if you choose to not supply any food to anyone the Food factory will still demand 200 grain per year. But would demand 800 grain per year if you fully upgraded the factory.

Originally posted by TheWatcherUatu:

It's like, City A wants machines, but the factory is all the way on the other side of the map. To complete the chain would be in no way profitable with most of these things.

The further away industries are the better. You are paid based on distance, not to mention the further a line travels the more cost efficient it is. So it is ideal that an industry is on the other side of the map from the town that demands it's products.

[sergetechone]

" The further away industries are the better. You are paid based on distance, not to mention the further a line travels the more cost efficient it is "

That is correct. In one of my play, using mods, I am trying to setup the lines so they can carry both ways as much of possible. To use Vimpster example, A train with stone to carry a ConMat across the map, and and very close to the ConMat, a coal mine. you carry back to a steel mills close to the stone mine. Only a short distance to travel empty... Steel Mill to Stone Mine..... ConMat to Coal Mine. add trains to match the production of the stone and coal mine, if they are the same, if not, match the lowest one. The trucks lines are use for mostly one way. Trains are use for both ways - if possible.

In TF1, YOU HAVE TO COMPLETE THE CHAIN. In TF2, No. If a chain is complete, and the demand is high to trigger an industry upgraded, than yes - a complete chain will be necessary. In one my present play, most of my starter line is a simple one way, two truck station, one depot, one truck and one million using already roads, built a lots of simple lines until I got the funds to improve, rebuild the roads, built more vehicles ( match the production / rate ) , and until I can setup trains lines . Using mods ....and using the longer map - 1:5 .

[sergetechone]

I just look at both pictures. Let understand here. You Stone to transfer line - A , Transfer to CanMat - B and CanMat to City - C. Let assume the demand for ConMat is 25. The ConMat demand for stones before upgrade is 100. So Line A and B can have a rate close to 100, so you can add trucks until your rate is close to 100, more than 100, you will have a line up of trucks waiting at the truck station. - wait until full is set or mostly empty trucks if set with no waiting. As for line C, you can only match the rate of 25, if the demand increase, so you can add one truck at a time until the rate is match.

[VayneVerso]

Originally posted by Vimpster:

Originally posted by TheWatcherUatu:

It's like, City A wants machines, but the factory is all the way on the other side of the map. To complete the chain would be in no way profitable with most of these things.

The further away industries are the better. You are paid based on distance, not to mention the further a line travels the more cost efficient it is. So it is ideal that an industry is on the other side of the map from the town that demands it's products.

Wow. Really? I didn't realize that. That's interesting. I guess I'll go ahead and start shipping some of these finished products around then.

Though I still see this as a little problematic, because if you do it, you need to be sure you're carrying something both ways, or else you're stuck with trucks that are empty a ton of the time. Like, if I'm playing on the large map (which I am), and it takes a wagon... I don't know... a full year to move something from one place to a next, it's a problem if it just doesn't make a profit every other year. ha!

Okay, off to experiment. Thanks for the info.

[gamebori]

Originally posted by TheWatcherUatu:

Originally posted by Vimpster:

The further away industries are the better. You are paid based on distance, not to mention the further a line travels the more cost efficient it is. So it is ideal that an industry is on the other side of the map from the town that demands it's products.

Wow. Really? I didn't realize that. That's interesting. I guess I'll go ahead and start shipping some of these finished products around then.

Though I still see this as a little problematic, because if you do it, you need to be sure you're carrying something both ways, or else you're stuck with trucks that are empty a ton of the time. Like, if I'm playing on the large map (which I am), and it takes a wagon... I don't know... a full year to move something from one place to a next, it's a problem if it just doesn't make a profit every other year. ha!

Okay, off to experiment. Thanks for the info.

I am not sure if horse wagons or old trucks will be possible on long routes. In TPF1 there was some sort of time limit, I think if something would take more than 20 minutes to transport there would be no demand. If TPF2 has the same you would need a fast train to get from one end of the map to the other.

[Autocoach]

Yes there is a time limit for a line to trigger but it is much longer than 20mins . Can't remember exactly but it is at least 2hrs for a round trip for freight

[sergetechone]

In TF1, long route across a long map was not possible. Even a complete chain, goods did not show up waiting. In TF2, a long map ( experimental ) of 1:5 ratio work. I setup an petrol line to a processing plant, and using a mod to place an industry producing petrol and receiving the petrol. Oil Well - Plant, Oil producer - Oil receiver, set to match 2000 ( using mods ), built a long across train line - several millions. in the 100 millions. buy a train of 400 m, that can carry well over 1600, I place the train and ....Oil was waiting at both station., check the rate - 245 per train, add more until it match 2000 - around 1900. The train was traveling on average of 80 km/h and some sections that was slow due to tight curves. and when the line was fully online, one train trip across the map did paid out around 600 millions per arrival, so the train unload the oil, and load back the oil - wait to full load order set to unlimited.. with close to 8 trains, the line was producing well above 1.5 billions / year. Full trains both way.

yeah .... in TF2, very long route work very well. To do the same in TF1, forget it, it is not working at all.

[VayneVerso]

This is the longest truck route I've attempted so far. Construction materials from the factory on the left all the way to Toledo on the right.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2342529265

I broke it up into five legs so that I don't have station overflow and so units get delivered on a somewhat more regular schedule, and I haven't got all the vehicles running that I need yet, but it's getting there.

I mean, I think it's kind of dumb to do this. It feels like it's barely profitable to deliver goods to cities even under ideal conditions (for example, my delivery route to the closer city of Vancouver basically loses money most of the time for whatever reason), and this line isn't raking in cash even on its own, not even accounting for infrastructure maintenance. It's probably losing money, really, once you do all the math. Though keep in mind that I'm using horse drawn carriages that only carry 4 units at a time. Not ideal. ha! Maybe it could work with better technology later on.

Anyway, now that I know it's not necessary to complete the chain, it opens up a lot more options. It's kind of weird that there isn't some sort of bonus for running a full chain, though. In some cases it almost seems a waste of resources to bother.