Help Understanding Rate

[Brad]

I am trying to fully grasp rate calculations. I have no trouble understanding one-way/single consist rate calculations like transporting timber from a forest that produces 400, will need a route rate >= 400 (at max capacity). This is pretty easy to understand on single consist routes.

Where I am confused is on mixed consist routes. For example using the same scenario, if I have a train running timber (output 400) to a mill and lumber back the other way (output 200). Does my route rate need to be 400 or 600?

Or the same question in regard to multi-stop routes: If I have a single train hauling crude oil (output 400) to oil refinery and refined oil (output 200) to fuel refinery and refined fuel (output 200) to a city, then would the rate be the sum of the output of all three (800), or the largest single output of the three (400 crude oil)?

Thanks

[Tarazed]

Just think of the rate as being between each pair of stops on the line. So if you have 4 stops, A-B-C-D, you are able to ship the line's rate from A->B then B->C, C->D and finally D->A.

So in both your examples, you'd want to target a rate of 400. The legs where your output is only 200 would just see your vehicles run half full.

I wouldn't call either of your examples mixed consist routes, as your trains will have only the one type of wagon on them. Mixed consist to me is where you need a mixture of different wagon types to complete the route. Note that where you have this mix, the rate is calculated on the total vehicle capacity, it doesn't adjust the rate for the fact that not all wagons will be able to be filled at a given stop. You'll need to mentally apply this adjustment to figure out what rate you need.

[Brad]

Tarazed,

Yes, I may be misusing the term "mixed consist".

Ok, so lets change it up: If I were hauling 200 grain from A->B and returning with 100 food from B->A. Would the rate be 200, 300 or something entirely different?

[Gregory_TheGamer]

Originally posted by Brad:

Tarazed,

Yes, I may be misusing the term "mixed consist".

Ok, so lets change it up: If I were hauling 200 grain from A->B and returning with 100 food from B->A. Would the rate be 200, 300 or something entirely different?

Chances are it would be 150 as the game would likely take the average out of it. Otherwise it must be 200, because you can't transport more than that. At least that's how I see it. Good question tho.

[Tarazed]

Originally posted by Brad:

Tarazed,

Yes, I may be misusing the term "mixed consist".

Ok, so lets change it up: If I were hauling 200 grain from A->B and returning with 100 food from B->A. Would the rate be 200, 300 or something entirely different?

In this case, because grain and food need different wagons, you would want to target a rate of 300. Note that this assumes that your trains would have 2 gondola wagons for each boxcar and that you're not mixing 'generations' of cars with different capacities.

At the farm, 1/3 of the wagons cannot be used to carry grain and at the other end 2/3 cannot be used to ship food. In both cases you need to adjust for the unusable capacity; so add 50% more at the farm (200->300) and triple at the food processor (100->300). Thus to fully carry this amount your line will need a rate of 300.

Or an easier way of thinking about it is assume that you start with separate trains on separate lines with your grain route having a rate of 200 and food having a rate of 100. The two lines have the same stations and same distance. Now transfer the trains on one line to the other. From a train perspective, nothing has changed, the trains still go on the same. So it makes sense that the rate on the combined line is the same as the sum of the two original lines. You can swap wagons between individual trains and still nothing changes.

[Gregory_TheGamer]

Originally posted by Tarazed:

Originally posted by Brad:

Tarazed,

Yes, I may be misusing the term "mixed consist".

Ok, so lets change it up: If I were hauling 200 grain from A->B and returning with 100 food from B->A. Would the rate be 200, 300 or something entirely different?

In this case, because grain and food need different wagons, you would want to target a rate of 300. Note that this assumes that your trains would have 2 gondola wagons for each boxcar and that you're not mixing 'generations' of cars with different capacities.

At the farm, 1/3 of the wagons cannot be used to carry grain and at the other end 2/3 cannot be used to ship food. In both cases you need to adjust for the unusable capacity; so add 50% more at the farm (200->300) and triple at the food processor (100->300). Thus to fully carry this amount your line will need a rate of 300.

Or an easier way of thinking about it is assume that you start with separate trains on separate lines with your grain route having a rate of 200 and food having a rate of 100. The two lines have the same stations and same distance. Now transfer the trains on one line to the other. From a train perspective, nothing has changed, the trains still go on the same. So it makes sense that the rate on the combined line is the same as the sum of the two original lines. You can swap wagons between individual trains and still nothing changes.

That makes sense... Good explanation.

[Brad]

Originally posted by Tarazed:

In this case, because grain and food need different wagons, you would want to target a rate of 300. Note that this assumes that your trains would have 2 gondola wagons for each boxcar and that you're not mixing 'generations' of cars with different capacities.

At the farm, 1/3 of the wagons cannot be used to carry grain and at the other end 2/3 cannot be used to ship food. In both cases you need to adjust for the unusable capacity; so add 50% more at the farm (200->300) and triple at the food processor (100->300). Thus to fully carry this amount your line will need a rate of 300.
...
So it makes sense that the rate on the combined line is the same as the sum of the two original lines.

That makes perfect sense! Thank you Tarazed!

[Brad]

Ok, new scenario to hammer it home. Ignore the reality of this situation, its just a hypothetical to ensure I understand how to do the calculations:

So, taking the 400 grain to the food factory and shipping 200 food back.

===

If I were to have a train on this line with 6 hoppers for grain, and 2 box cars for food. So 75% of the capacity of the train is hoppers, and the remaining 25% is box cars.

===

In order to achieve the required 400:200 ratio I would actually need a line rate of 800.

800 rate * 0.75 (75%) = 600 grain capacity
800 rate * 0.25 (25%) = 200 food capacity

===

So to calculate the required rate I would use the formula:

400 grain / 0.75 percentage capacity = line rate of 533.33
200 food / 0.25 capacity = line rate of 800

So in order to achieve both of those rates would require a line rate of the larger number 800. So wasted space on the grain, but that's whats require in order to haul 200 food @ 25% capacity.

===

Correct?

[Vimpster]

Why would you have 75% of the train for hauling the grain though? It only demands 2 grain for one food. Not 3 grain. But in your hypothetical, if 3 grain were needed to make one food, then yes, you would need a rate of 800 on the line.

[Tarazed]

Originally posted by Brad:

Ok, new scenario to hammer it home. Ignore the reality of this situation, its just a hypothetical to ensure I understand how to do the calculations:

So, taking the 400 grain to the food factory and shipping 200 food back.

===

If I were to have a train on this line with 6 hoppers for grain, and 2 box cars for food. So 75% of the capacity of the train is hoppers, and the remaining 25% is box cars.

===

In order to achieve the required 400:200 ratio I would actually need a line rate of 800.

800 rate * 0.75 (75%) = 600 grain capacity
800 rate * 0.25 (25%) = 200 food capacity

===

So to calculate the required rate I would use the formula:

400 grain / 0.75 percentage capacity = line rate of 533.33
200 food / 0.25 capacity = line rate of 800

So in order to achieve both of those rates would require a line rate of the larger number 800. So wasted space on the grain, but that's whats require in order to haul 200 food @ 25% capacity.

===

Correct?

Given that ratio of hoppers to boxcars, that is correct. Whether that's the optimal ratio is another question. Getting different numbers in your second pair of equations suggests that it's not.

Either:-
You'd be delivering an additional 200 grain/year and getting another 100 food/year at the Food Processor that you'd not be taking away. That extra could be transported somewhere else on a different line.
Or:-
You'd have some empty hoppers, costing you money and making you none.

[Brad]

Originally posted by Brad:

Ignore the reality of this situation, its just a hypothetical to ensure I understand how to do the calculations

I realize this specific scenario is intentionally illogical. Yes, I know its a 2:1 ratio. Its the math and understanding I am interested in. In an actual situation there may be a third resource involved, maybe I am hauling stone in the extra space. I just need to fully understand the math, at which point I can apply it to any possible scenario I encounter.

[General Tso]

Originally posted by Brad:

Tarazed,

Yes, I may be misusing the term "mixed consist".

Ok, so lets change it up: If I were hauling 200 grain from A->B and returning with 100 food from B->A. Would the rate be 200, 300 or something entirely different?

Just to be clear. What you are hauling has nothing to do with how the rate if calculated. The rate is simply an indication of how much cargo capacity will go by a single point in a given amount of time. Whether that cargo capacity is utilized or not doesn't matter. Or at least that's how I understand it to work.

[Tarazed]

Originally posted by General Tso:

Just to be clear. What you are hauling has nothing to do with how the rate if calculated. The rate is simply an indication of how much cargo capacity will go by a single point in a given amount of time. Whether that cargo capacity is utilized or not doesn't matter. Or at least that's how I understand it to work.

Yes the rate is calculated based on total capacity of all vehicles on the line. What that capacity can or can't be used for is not taken into account. But if you're mixing consists so that only part of your total capacity is usable between certain stops, it's useful to be able to mentally calculate the required total capacity rate to achieve a certain delivery rate.

Also to add a note that the rate is how much capacity/year goes by a point if the line is stretched out. If your route visits a station multiple times, then the number of items delivered per year to that station is that multiple of the line's rate.

[Gorby]

Here's some easy math that applies to trains both with and without mixed wagon types:

required line rate = (desired single cargo rate) / (single cargo capacity / total cargo capacity)

For example:
- Train with 6 grain hoppers (120 capacity) and 2 food box cars (40 capacity) - (160 total)
- You desire 600 grain and 200 food delivered per financial cycle

You can pick either cargo to calculate but we'll use the grain:

600 / (120 / 160)
600 / 0.75
800

Grain capacity makes up 75% of your train's capacity; therefore, your desired rate of 600 grain per financial cycle is 75% of the total rate you need.

EDIT - note that this only works if all trains on the line are the same. Otherwise we'd probably have to get Einstein in here to give us formulas for that!

[Incrediblejimmy]

Is there any way to evaluate the necessary passenger rate between two cities?

[Vimpster]

Originally posted by Incrediblejimmy:

Is there any way to evaluate the necessary passenger rate between two cities?

Sadly no. In the best case scenario, where a town is at a dead end branch of a network, meaning there would be no passengers that are simply passing through a town, you can estimate the theoretical maximum potential rate needed, which would be the sum total of residents, shopping slots and jobs of the town. But even then it would be a very rough estimate because people don't travel on a yearly basis. Their journeys can range very wildly from just a few months to like 3 years, just travelling one way.