Struggling with new production/logistics system

[MysticDaedra]

I played TF1 extensively, some of y'all might remember me from the steam discussions. I would never say I was ever truly "good" at the game, but I got to a point where even hard difficulty was easy. This was OK, because to me the thrill was, and is, the logistical puzzle of making everything fit together.

I'm finding the new logistics system to be cumbersome and counter-intuitive. This is not just coming from TF1, but general logistics from games such as Factorio and even modded Minecraft. Without warehouse capability, the new system is very perplexing and unrealistic.

In TF1 a cargo hub made perfect sense. You could easily supply multiple nearby cities from said cargo hub, usually via trucks until late game when small trains could handle the increased throughput better. In my current Hard difficulty playthrough I am finding that it is extremely difficult to turn a profit without this key feature of the original game.

The new system is very frustrating. Since each city only requests two products, and it is very unlikely to get two cities nearby each other that request the same product, it is impossible (as far as I can tell) to have a mainline production yard anymore. Instead it seems TF2 favors random train lines willy-nilly to create profitable lines, and each city requires a separate production line. The lack of hubs is extremely disappointing, as realistic freight networks are no longer viable. Without the ability to create realistic-looking freight arrangements, this game feels like a game that really wants to be a tycoon game, but obviously is missing the core aspects of that genre. This is truly a one step forward, two steps back situation, in my eyes.

So my plea to everyone who disagrees with me, PLEASE explain how I can create the complex mainline/hub logistical layouts that were possible in TF1. Please explain to me how to create profitable lines on hard difficulty that don't involve separate production lines for each city. Is this possible? Or should I throw in the towel, go back to TF1, and hope that they un-change all the strange changes they made to this game in TF3?

[Kniff]

I myself like it as it is now.
And you can use mods to increase the good types which a city needs.
The current limit has the potential that mods could generally increase it or increase it by reaching a target and then provide you some additional end game motivations.

[lozacenz]

Originally posted by MysticDaedra:

I played TF1 extensively, some of y'all might remember me from the steam discussions. I would never say I was ever truly "good" at the game, but I got to a point where even hard difficulty was easy. This was OK, because to me the thrill was, and is, the logistical puzzle of making everything fit together.

I'm finding the new logistics system to be cumbersome and counter-intuitive. This is not just coming from TF1, but general logistics from games such as Factorio and even modded Minecraft. Without warehouse capability, the new system is very perplexing and unrealistic.

In TF1 a cargo hub made perfect sense. You could easily supply multiple nearby cities from said cargo hub, usually via trucks until late game when small trains could handle the increased throughput better. In my current Hard difficulty playthrough I am finding that it is extremely difficult to turn a profit without this key feature of the original game.

The new system is very frustrating. Since each city only requests two products, and it is very unlikely to get two cities nearby each other that request the same product, it is impossible (as far as I can tell) to have a mainline production yard anymore. Instead it seems TF2 favors random train lines willy-nilly to create profitable lines, and each city requires a separate production line. The lack of hubs is extremely disappointing, as realistic freight networks are no longer viable. Without the ability to create realistic-looking freight arrangements, this game feels like a game that really wants to be a tycoon game, but obviously is missing the core aspects of that genre. This is truly a one step forward, two steps back situation, in my eyes.

So my plea to everyone who disagrees with me, PLEASE explain how I can create the complex mainline/hub logistical layouts that were possible in TF1. Please explain to me how to create profitable lines on hard difficulty that don't involve separate production lines for each city. Is this possible? Or should I throw in the towel, go back to TF1, and hope that they un-change all the strange changes they made to this game in TF3?

Each city does not, in fact, require a separate production line. Generally speaking, a fully upgraded factory that is at the end of it's production chain will produce enough goods to serve multiple cities (though sometimes the largest city on the map might grow big enough to exceed it's capacity, I guess) .

Cargo hubs work as well as ever, but what tends to happen is that, rather than building a dedicated hub, you'll build a station for a specific purpose that will, over time, develop Into a hub. Mainlines vs branches tends to happen similarly. You'll (or at least I'll) build a decent chunk of track from a source of something to a place that needs it... which will each be fairly close to a town, one of which wants the end product, so you stick a station in each town (no town needs more than two terminals for freight unless it's station's developed into a hub), and hook them up to the existing track (why build more?). Make sure to include through tracks (no platform) at your stations! Doesn't take many instances of that before you've ended up with a main line, and simply because each station can only have so many platforms, and each chunk of track can only handle so many trains without jamming up, you end up with hubs.

It's not uncommon in my games for a station originally built to serve a food factory to end up not only as the drop off point for multiple grain lines (as it must be) and the pick up point for multiple food lines, but Also a transfer point for a number of other things And, if close enough to a city to make a tram or bus connection viable, also a passenger station, sometimes also for multiple lines.

My experience is that you won't build as many hubs as you might have in TpF1, but they'll still exist and be quite important to your network.

Turning a profit is actually pretty simple: in 1850, any train which has at least 4 wagons and runs full in one direction will turn a profit, as will any train with 1 or 2 passenger cars which runs full in both directions. (note that the latter basically Won't Happen without a good bus/tram system supporting it at each end)

Note that you do not need the entire production chain from one end to the other in order for goods to flow! There's a maximum cap on how much a factory will demand if you're not also shipping it's product out, but it's Not Zero.

Also, while having freight trains run full in both directions is great, it's not actually necessary. That said, it's very difficult to do a lot of the time... unless you use hubs!

TpF2 does encourage you to have one train making one leg of the route, back and forth, constantly, and then a second one making the next leg, even when both use the same wagon type, fyi. it's the 2:1 input to output ratio at the first level and the fact that lines still compete with each other for cargo that does it.

Whether you end up with a major main line or tracks crisscrossing each other all over the place seems to be more down to how the map generation works out though. Some maps strongly encourage a major main line with smaller branches, others leave things squiggling everywhere more.

(keep in mind, I've never played either game on hard, as I find I have enough challenge to be entertaining on medium.)

So... I may be misunderstanding your points, but my experience doesn't seem to line up with yours exactly?

[MysticDaedra]

It could be I'm just not doing it right! Thanks for the response, I will go back in and try again. My last game I think got killed because the distance between my oil refinery and the fuel refinery was too long, so it took too long for the trains to traverse the distance. Oops!

[Vimpster]

Originally posted by MysticDaedra:

My last game I think got killed because the distance between my oil refinery and the fuel refinery was too long, so it took too long for the trains to traverse the distance. Oops!

Too long? How could it be too long? I have not heard of such a thing. The longer the better is my motto.

[Gregorovitch]

Originally posted by lozacenz:

Cargo hubs work as well as ever, but what tends to happen is that, rather than building a dedicated hub, you'll build a station for a specific purpose that will, over time, develop Into a hub.

I concur with this answer. This what I have found happening.

I'd add that there also opportunities to move large bulk quantities of particularly raw materials back and forth on long trains full in both directions if you look for them and design them into your network.

Originally posted by MysticDaedra:

In TF1 a cargo hub made perfect sense. You could easily supply multiple nearby cities from said cargo hub, usually via trucks until late game when small trains could handle the increased throughput better. In my current Hard difficulty playthrough I am finding that it is extremely difficult to turn a profit without this key feature of the original game.

Yes. The challenge is different to TF1, it requires a different approach and there doesn't seem to be a one-size-fits-all network design solution like that for TF2. In some ways it's easier (for example making money is a lot easier), but in some ways a lot harder especially from a network design and logistics point of view. Growing cities is harder.

[Pak0tac]

TF2 is more casual the TF1
the devs made the economy in such way that its easier for more people to understand, and thus to widen their market (target) and sell more.

I think its ok
you no longer have to worry about long multi stage production lines
you can just run a single stage and make profit, while in the previous game you had to plan an entire line from raw resources all the way to the end consumers

[sergetechone]

Well .... I find the new version ( TF2 ) different way to how to setup your lines. It all depend on the map you play and how the industries are place on the map. It is more a logistical puzzle and try to supply the towns and industries. You have to adapt your play to figure out the best route on a two demand cities. And the limitation of the industries ( low productions ) ... if you are playing just vanila. With mods .... the puzzle is a bit less complicated. You can setup route to just Raw to Factory only and still make a decent profit as long the rate match the shipment - Under consumer tab. As for long one way route, as long the rate match the shipment, the profit per vehicle is good. Both way is better.

[Vimpster]

Originally posted by MysticDaedra:

So my plea to everyone who disagrees with me, PLEASE explain how I can create the complex mainline/hub logistical layouts that were possible in TF1. Please explain to me how to create profitable lines on hard difficulty that don't involve separate production lines for each city. Is this possible? Or should I throw in the towel, go back to TF1, and hope that they un-change all the strange changes they made to this game in TF3?

I personally never really did mainlines and hubs. At least not for the sake of doing so. I play TF2 very much the same way I played TF1 which is focusing on dedicated lines. If I have enough dedicated lines in an area and travelling similar paths than I may end up with a sort of mainline and hub setup. But it would be a naturally occurring thing that may or may not emerge from focusing on dedicated lines.

I would actually love to look over someones save map for TF1 or TF2 of a mainline and hub network that actually is really profitable. Because I don't see how it would be. At least not if Colonel Failures idea of a mainline and hub system is anything to go by. His cargo networks generally make just a fraction of what my cargo lines do. In fact I usually can have just a single dedicated line that makes more than his entire company at any point in time.

[sergetechone]

I do agree with Vimpster, doing dedicated lines is way better than do a "so call" main line like Colonel Failure Idea of a main line.

Just say one town need Tools, so you can have a Logs - Planks line that will make money both way and full both way, with a feeder line to feed the saw mill so you have two forest that will feed a saw mill and the planks feed the tools factory. If the town grow, so the demand, so the line of Logs - Planks can carry more and make a bigger profits. repeat the same situation with the other towns, try to see lines that will be full both way and that are long distance. In TF1, a main line may work as long you have sections that is making Tools, Machines, Foods and that will work just fine or using intercity trucks that carry most of the items. But in TF2, that strategy will not work so well - in my opinion, so the strategy of dedicated lines that feed one cities at the time and running both way. As long the placement of industries, need of the cities work out.

[canophone]

For cargo trains, I definitely prefer dedicated lines. For cargo boats, I may or may not make dedicated lines; sometimes it's more efficient when they aren't dedicated lines on the water.