Too Much Deadheading

[Stormlover_51]

With factories mostly placed near the cities and resources out in the boondocks, well, I don't really need to describe it do I. Trains run empty an awful lot.

It's not a money problem, heck, you can't help but make money on medium level; but it's "boring" just running trains back and forth in such a simple manner.

Is there a mod or even a strategy that would keep the trains busier? (And yes of course I know they can sometimes be 1/2 full but when you total the loads and trips you still end up with 50% full overall.)

[Darthy66]

I build hubs. It's bloody complicated but I split the map into areas around the terrain and then bring everything in to the hub via train and truck before distributing. It could be argued it's more realistic to be fair.

[sergetechone]

That depend .... If you got Sand Box Mode On in your play, you have to place the industries at the right spot so the route can be running full both ways as possible. Without Sand Box, you going to get a lots of deadheading, if the map industries locations dont work out.

Here in this picture, I use carts to get a route of Stone - Bricks. Was using a map without industries. It is one of SlimNasty maps. That was my start up route.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1994074626

Later, I got more funding, I setup a ship route to get Stone - Bricks feeding two towns.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1994073735

And all routes start with a full load, and some time full back - from 85 % full to 100 % full. As for the buses lines, well they not doing well, but they are mostly full both ways. And I was playing on Easy. If it was Hard, the cargo lines will be doing well, but not the buses lines.

[TheLostPenguin]

In terms of mods there are a couple of potential ways to combat this, first going back to all cities requiring all end products opens up more chances for trains to carry at least something for most of their routes, of course this still depends on the exact map layout but in TpF1 I often would have a train that delivered 1 good to city A then pickup a part load of something else to be dropped off at city B on its way back to get more of its primary cargo.
Another possibility is moving your manufacturing industries into cities, which may help create more opportunities as above for return loads.
I don't know if there are any out there yet for TpF2 but mods that increased the number of goods types would also help, in reality there are a great many cargo types that can be transported in say generic goods wagons, having so few possible cargoes for each wagon type makes it harder to arrange return loads. Having more possible loads for each wagon type would mean a far higher chance of there being a viable return load.

[Vimpster]

In my games I always have more train lines that transport full both ways than I have train lines that transport on average full only 50% of the time. In fact I only allow a train line to run full 50% of the time if it is part of a chain that includes a train line that transports full both ways. In that way any suboptimal train line only exists as a supplement to a train line that runs optimally.

Here is an example; https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1994234852
In this picture there are 12 freight train lines and 8 of them run optimally (100% full both ways), and they are all part of complete chains as well. Though in the beginning I don't mind setting up lines that are not part of a complete chain, but in time I complete the chains. The reason for this is that most production chains require multiple production chains linked together in order to facilitate trains running full both ways. So for instance the food chain and the brick chains. On their own they do not allow train lines to run full both ways. But if you link those chains to be interconnected you allow for a train line running full both ways, stone in one direction and grain in the other.

In my picture, of the 8 out of 12 that run full both ways, I have 3 train lines that do logs one way and planks the other, 1 train line doing stone one way and coal the other, 1 train line doing crude oil one way and fuel the other, 1 train line doing coal and iron one way and grain the other, 1 train line doing stone one way and grain the other, and 1 train line doing bricks one way and steel the other. In all cases the supply and demand have been balanced so that there is an equal volume of demand in both directions for each of the cargo items being transported (naturally, not using mods).

[mgb]

With the exception of box cars and passenger coaches it's perfectly normal for rolling stock to run empty half the time.

It's profitable in TF2 to run coal and grain in opposite directions in the same gondolas but it is not realistic.

[Vimpster]

Originally posted by mgb:

It's profitable in TF2 to run coal and grain in opposite directions in the same gondolas but it is not realistic.

Fortunately for me that particular lack of realism does not bother me.

[sergetechone]

" It's profitable in TF2 to run coal and grain in opposite directions in the same gondolas but it is not realistic. "

I do agree. I use the mod : Grain in Boxcar. In Canada, they use box car, not gondola, but in later years, use cover hopper. The cover hopper mod carry grains and plastics ( IRL ... plastics pellets ) . If a plain vanilla play is use, maybe a Grain - Stone , Grain - Coal or Grain - Iron Ore will do. Or do a Grain - Factory ( map end A ) - Grain - Factory ( map end B ) . Pick grains at one end, carry all the way to the another end of the map, do at factory, pick up grain close by, and carry back the grain to the another end of the map, and pick up the grain again, repeat. Again, it all depend on the map. With Sandbox, it is possible to do that setup.

[Vimpster]

Originally posted by sergetechone:

Pick grains at one end, carry all the way to the another end of the map, do at factory, pick up grain close by, and carry back the grain to the another end of the map, and pick up the grain again, repeat. Again, it all depend on the map. With Sandbox, it is possible to do that setup.

Have you actually done this? Has it worked? How would you transport the same product both ways without having at least some of the product attempting to be delivered to the closer delivery point? Which of course would result in some portion of the product staying on the train for the full round trip. To my knowledge transporting the same product both ways does not work reliably.

[Six]

In my game I use the "industry expanded" mod, and have also downloaded a few freight cars, like new hoppers. Even as such I have trains that run empty one way just like in real life.
On one line I'm supplying a steel mill which produces steel and slag. AS the input and output is a 2 - 1 ratio I get 1/2 the amount of slag than the amount of coal and ore im delivering. So my coal trains run empty on the way back. Fortunately about 2/3rds of the way back in a construction materials plan so I have the ore trains pick up the slag and deliver it to the mats plant. Not ideal but at least not all my trains are running empty on the way back.
On another route I was lucky enough to have the industry set up in a way that was almost perfect. Tools factory, forestry camp, lumber camp. So my trains are set up to take logs to the lumber mill, the lumber to the tools factory then back to the logging camp. This way my trains only run empty for a little bit. Maxed out my tools factory can supply 3 towns with tools. Sadly this means I have 3 trains that need boxcars to deliver the tools, and then run back empty.
I'm not too concerned as most of my routes make a decent profit even running back empty. For my coal route for example each train make about 10 million per delivery and I have 6 trains on the line. So that's 60 million total, deduct expenses and when I look at the line manager it shows a total profit of just shy of 50 million. I can live with that.
I suppose that I could use sandbox mode and place another industry by the steel mill, so all my trains are running full both ways but I don't feel like doing that, I'm happy with 50 mil per line.
Also as far as I know, and has been pointed out, I believe that in real life the only trains that usually run full both ways are boxcars and double stack container trains.

[Six]

One more thought, even my passenger trains don't run full both ways as it seem more sims want to head one way than the other. On my north south line all my stations are full so I have to run extra trains to ensure the stations don't become overloaded, but on the way back south my trains run at about half capacity which is quite annoying.

[Gorby]

One that I always like:
- fill logs 100%
- drop logs at plank factory
- go to steel factory, pick up 50% steel
- go back and pick up 50% planks at that same plank factory
- drop all at machine factory
- go back to logs pickup

Many times it's pretty easy to line up that route unless the industry placement is really unfortunate.

[sergetechone]

@Vimpster

I mean that : Let use Canada as an example. From Vancouver to Toronto. You pick up grains around Vancouver area ----> Grain - Vancouver - Factory ----------------------------- Toronto ---- Factory --- Grain. Drop the grains to factory in the Toronto area. Pick up the grains in the Toronto area and drop to factory in the Vancouver area. And take the foods from Toronto, drop in Vancouver for distribution, and pick up foods from Vancouver and drop in Toronto for distribution. So it is still Grain to Factory, Factory to Commercial Area. It just a longer distance, that all. And you only have a small section that it will run empty, from Factory to Grain in the local area.

I did some thing like that using Coal / Iron. PU Coal/Iron ---------------> Steel Mill ---> PU Coal / Iron going back to an another Steel Mill. And make sure the steels are being use by local industry to make Machines or Goods.

So .... technically, it may work, if it is .... going to have a very big profit.

@Gorby

That is a good idea.

The thing is .... I try that with a Coal / Iron. A route that is set : 50 % of Coal, 50 % of Iron - Wait until Full Load. Unlimited time. In theory, it should work, but in pratical, not working well. Sometime I got 50 / 40 , 50 / 45. Always some missings loads. Not a complete 50 / 50 most of the time.

[lozacenz]

Originally posted by Stormlover_51:

With factories mostly placed near the cities and resources out in the boondocks, well, I don't really need to describe it do I. Trains run empty an awful lot.

It's not a money problem, heck, you can't help but make money on medium level; but it's "boring" just running trains back and forth in such a simple manner.

Is there a mod or even a strategy that would keep the trains busier? (And yes of course I know they can sometimes be 1/2 full but when you total the loads and trips you still end up with 50% full overall.)

Pretty sure 'deadheading' is running the engine with no wagons at all. That's generally considered bad IRL. Running the empties back so they can load up again is just acknowledging that reality exists. Tends to work better than the alternative.

Of course, running them back Full is much, much better when you can do it. Perfectly doable: Have a freight hub at each end, the train between them can run things in both directions quite happily (assuming you've positioned the hubs such that there are things using the same wagon type going in both directions). Of course, the vehicles taking goods to and from the hub are still going to run empty on the way back in most cases.

Or occasionally you can do amusing things due to the positioning of factories and such. I have a line in my current game that runs in a one way circle: Oil well to oil refinery to fuel refinery to city to oil well. Only that last section (the second shortest) has the train running empty. (there's a second line bringing more crude oil to the oil refinery so that the trains aren't always half full for the rest of the trip)
Of course, I really should have just used trucks for that one (things are all fairly close together) bit it still kind of does what you want and is amusing.

[Vimpster]

Originally posted by sergetechone:

@Vimpster

I mean that : Let use Canada as an example. From Vancouver to Toronto. You pick up grains around Vancouver area ----> Grain - Vancouver - Factory ----------------------------- Toronto ---- Factory --- Grain. Drop the grains to factory in the Toronto area. Pick up the grains in the Toronto area and drop to factory in the Vancouver area. And take the foods from Toronto, drop in Vancouver for distribution, and pick up foods from Vancouver and drop in Toronto for distribution. So it is still Grain to Factory, Factory to Commercial Area. It just a longer distance, that all. And you only have a small section that it will run empty, from Factory to Grain in the local area.

I'm fairly sure I understood what you meant and I still don't see how that would work. If the same train is being used to transport the grain from Vancouver to the factory in Toronto as well as the grain from Toronto to the factory in Vancouver than how does the player prevent the grain from Vancouver from simply staying on board the train all the way till it returns to the factory in Vancouver? The player does not get to decide which factory the grain wants to go to if it is presented with multiple options.

If you believe you have accomplished this somehow than I would suggest you observe what is happening very closely as it seems highly likely that some amount of the product would simply not disembark at the far end and will instead stay on board and disembark back near where it came from. You would not be paid for the distance travelled in that case. You may still make good money on the line over all, but not nearly as much as a proper "full both ways" line would.

[gouthrodavid]

Originally posted by sergetechone:

@Vimpster

I mean that : Let use Canada as an example. From Vancouver to Toronto. You pick up grains around Vancouver area ----> Grain - Vancouver - Factory ----------------------------- Toronto ---- Factory --- Grain. Drop the grains to factory in the Toronto area. Pick up the grains in the Toronto area and drop to factory in the Vancouver area. And take the foods from Toronto, drop in Vancouver for distribution, and pick up foods from Vancouver and drop in Toronto for distribution. So it is still Grain to Factory, Factory to Commercial Area. It just a longer distance, that all. And you only have a small section that it will run empty, from Factory to Grain in the local area.

I did some thing like that using Coal / Iron. PU Coal/Iron ---------------> Steel Mill ---> PU Coal / Iron going back to an another Steel Mill. And make sure the steels are being use by local industry to make Machines or Goods.

So .... technically, it may work, if it is .... going to have a very big profit.

@Gorby

That is a good idea.

The thing is .... I try that with a Coal / Iron. A route that is set : 50 % of Coal, 50 % of Iron - Wait until Full Load. Unlimited time. In theory, it should work, but in pratical, not working well. Sometime I got 50 / 40 , 50 / 45. Always some missings loads. Not a complete 50 / 50 most of the time.

i hope you are only being hypothetical, because in real life there is no grain grown anywhere's near Vancouver.