Cargo Loss

[Rod]

I have a train with 6 gondolas to carry stone and 6 stake cars to carry construction materials. 12 cars total. I am using the principle of running full both ways to maximize profit.

Stone to construction materials is 1:1, so I tell my train to wait for a full (any) load at each end of the line. My train hauls 24t of stone to the construction materials plant, then waits while the materials are being produced and loaded for the return journey. Demand at the other end of the line is for 60t+ of construction materials.

When all the stone is used up and the construction materials plant stops producing, it had loaded 23t (!!!) of construction materials onto my train for its return journey. Somehow, 1t of cargo got lost in the process! The problem is, this train will now sit there forever because I have it set to unlimited wait time.

There are several workarounds - lower the wait time, for example, and the train will eventually leave. Or my preferred workaround - add another gondola so that it delivers 4t of extra stone. However, this doesn't address the underlying issue...

How does 1 ton of construction materials go missing when the train was present and waiting the entire time? I know cargo will gradually be lost when sitting unattended on a platform for a long time, but that is not what is happening here.

I have heard various attempts to explain the phantom loss of cargo... damaged goods, employee theft, etc. Whatever it is, I don't like it. I wonder if this is an intended game mechanic or just poor coding.

This is also highly reproducible. The same thing happens with grain-food lines and planks-tools.

[Vimpster]

It is bad practice to ever set a vehicle to wait for full load when it is waiting for a product made from a product the same vehicle has unloaded. Not only is it bad practice because the demand of the refined product is rarely ever going to match the demand of the supply product but also because you are forcing the vehicle to hang around for the product to be produced which is inefficient. It is far more practical and efficient to let it leave when it wants, especially on the first visit, so that every subsequent visit the vehicle will be picking up the production of the previous vehicles supply immediately and not have to wait around for the production.

I am curious in what way you are using the "run full both ways" principle. Unless you simply didn't share what other products your train is loading, it sounds like you are running half full both ways. But also the principle does not necessitate 100% full both ways but merely mostly full both ways. Especially in cases like this where the one product is dependant on the former product being delivered by the same line.

The full load option has always been dubious in this series because of how often people misuse it and how limited it's usefulness is anyways.

[Rod]

Originally posted by Vimpster:

It is bad practice to ever set a vehicle to wait for full load when it is waiting for a product made from a product the same vehicle has unloaded. Not only is it bad practice because the demand of the refined product is rarely ever going to match the demand of the supply product but also because you are forcing the vehicle to hang around for the product to be produced which is inefficient. It is far more practical and efficient to let it leave when it wants, especially on the first visit, so that every subsequent visit the vehicle will be picking up the production of the previous vehicles supply immediately and not have to wait around for the production.

I am curious in what way you are using the "run full both ways" principle. Unless you simply didn't share what other products your train is loading, it sounds like you are running half full both ways. But also the principle does not necessitate 100% full both ways but merely mostly full both ways. Especially in cases like this where the one product is dependant on the former product being delivered by the same line.

The full load option has always been dubious in this series because of how often people misuse it and how limited it's usefulness is anyways.

The scenario above was somewhat hypothetical to a degree. What I like to do is add one extra wagon for the raw material (e.g. stone) so that there is a surplus. After 5 or 6 train loads, the surplus of produced materials waiting at the station becomes large enough to fill the returning train without waiting for production to occur. After that, it's all gravy.

Also, yes, let's call it half-full both ways. I meant just ensuring there is cargo going both ways, that the train is never empty. Especially since most production chains require different wagon types for the raw materials and produced goods.

But Vimpster, you didn't answer my question... how did a ton of product just disappear when the train was there the whole time? Can't attribute this to platform cargo leakage.

[Autocoach]

Check the charts tab of the factory. If the bars are not the same height you are not getting all the production - because you don't need it . Also the 1st unit of production is never available to ship it would appear. The charts here show one where I am getting it all and one where I am not (because it is not required)


https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1984479700

[Rod]

Originally posted by Autocoach:

Check the charts tab of the factory. If the bars are not the same height you are not getting all the production - because you don't need it . Also the 1st unit of production is never available to ship it would appear. The charts here show one where I am getting it all and one where I am not (because it is not required)


https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1984479700

The demand is there, so it's not an issue of not "needing" it. However, you just blew my mind with this statement:

"Also the 1st unit of production is never available to ship it would appear."

Can we focus on this for a minute... Why is this the case? How does this make any real-world sense? Why should there be one throwaway unit of production to jump-start a factory for the first time?

I suggested in my original post that this could either be a "feature" or poor coding, and I am leaning towards the latter.

[Vimpster]

Originally posted by Rod:

The scenario above was somewhat hypothetical to a degree. What I like to do is add one extra wagon for the raw material (e.g. stone) so that there is a surplus. After 5 or 6 train loads, the surplus of produced materials waiting at the station becomes large enough to fill the returning train without waiting for production to occur. After that, it's all gravy.

Also, yes, let's call it half-full both ways. I meant just ensuring there is cargo going both ways, that the train is never empty. Especially since most production chains require different wagon types for the raw materials and produced goods.

But Vimpster, you didn't answer my question... how did a ton of product just disappear when the train was there the whole time? Can't attribute this to platform cargo leakage.

You are right, I did not have an explanation for the missing cargo. Personally I didn't see it as important because it does not effect the way I play at all. I suppose my response was somewhat intended to give you a sense of how I look at it so that it wouldn't have to be a concern for you either if you were to share my viewpoint.

I hope you realise that ensuring the vehicle transports something both ways is not a motto that leads to greater profits. You are no better off profit wise having a train go half full both ways than you are having a train go full in one direction and empty in the other. They both amount to the same thing.

[Rod]

Originally posted by Vimpster:

I hope you realise that ensuring the vehicle transports something both ways is not a motto that leads to greater profits. You are no better off profit wise having a train go half full both ways than you are having a train go full in one direction and empty in the other. They both amount to the same thing.

I do realize this. Starting in 1850 on a mountainous map on hard difficulty, I found myself only able to afford one train for this line initially. That is why it hauls cargo both ways. I need it to bring the finished product back to the source station so that it can be offloaded to trucks for distribution to nearby towns. Then, as money slowly trickled in, I found myself eventually purchasing a second train in the same configuration. This also keeps a more steady, continuous supply of product available for my trucks (horses and carts) to deliver.

But from a profit-only standpoint, I understand that it makes no difference whether a train is half-full both ways or completely full one way.

[Rod]

Originally posted by Autocoach:

the 1st unit of production
is never available to ship

I'd still like to know why this is the case.

[Gregorovitch]

Originally posted by Vimpster:

The full load option has always been dubious in this series because of how often people misuse it and how limited it's usefulness is anyways.

I concur with that. Every time I've been tempted to use it all it's ever done is slow down the process of winding up a supply chains production. So I never use it now.

In the OP's case it would be far better IMO to use two trains of half the size, one for stone and one for bricks, roughly evenly spaced down the line so the brick factory can process a load of stone whilst the brick train is returning after dropping off the last load.

[Gorby]

Originally posted by Rod:

Originally posted by Autocoach:

the 1st unit of production
is never available to ship

I'd still like to know why this is the case.

I suspect it's just a limitation of (or lack of) programming. If you deliver stone but don't have any lines to take the bricks away, the bricks are "produced" but they never really exist. So I suspect the game has to produce, and therefore lose, one unit of product in order for it to "detect" that there is a vehicle on a line coming to pick up the product. I doubt this is an intentional thing done by the devs.

[Rod]

Originally posted by Gorby:

Originally posted by Rod:

I'd still like to know why this is the case.

I suspect it's just a limitation of (or lack of) programming. If you deliver stone but don't have any lines to take the bricks away, the bricks are "produced" but they never really exist. So I suspect the game has to produce, and therefore lose, one unit of product in order for it to "detect" that there is a vehicle on a line coming to pick up the product. I doubt this is an intentional thing done by the devs.

As ugly as this is, it makes sense. It should also be easy to fix though. Sounds like lazy programming to me.

[Gorby]

To be fair, as far as I know it's literally just that first shipment in which that happens. I think it's a full 1:1 ratio (2:1 for Food, etc) from there on out, as long as you have vehicles coming.

[Enduwolf]

I've been having this problem and was about to chalk it up to a bug, but I was replacing tram stops to cover the city better and I realised the city ahd grown past my initial truck stop for tools. While the city reports demand higher than your supply, if your supply area doesn't cover all of the demand area, your manufacturing building will only produce enough to cover what you can supply. The rest of the materials are absorbed by the factory as you can't deliver the end product.

So, in my case, I was providing 286 planks to the factory but only 210 tools were coming out. When I looked at the city, only about 2/3 of the commercial buildings were covered by my unload point. Created another unload point on the line and the factory immediately increased tools coming out and upgraded to level 3.