Reflections on The Great Green

[Jedi-J2]

Right, so I was kind of hoping to find an in-depth thread on why this game is as good as it is (I'm probably just lousy at finding the deeper discussions), so rather than distributing my thoughts over various threads, I'm just going to use this as a general dumping ground for my little rants until/unless this thread bloats or something. I half want to just praise the game, but I'm also hoping I can break it apart and figure out a little of why it works.

Golden Treasure genuinely spoke to me. This is one of those rare games where budget is well and truly replaced and superseded by sheer passion and talent. The concept of songs is apt, as it does require you to be on its wavelength in order to really enjoy it, but by and large I found that, besides a couple of discordant moments, I was indeed on that wavelength and found beauty in the song it played. The writing itself is always the standout, but the art, music, and most system elements all tie together into something more than the sum of its parts.

That writing is something to behold. I had initially been worried it was going to be too flowery, but it settled into a rhythm that made it clear that this was just how dragons think. I noticed certain similarities to the Age of Fire series by E. E. Knight (The first three anyways, before it seemed like the editor quit.), as well as a sort of Warriors vibe that is hard to pin down exactly (The cat series, for disambiguaty's sake). On the first bit, besides the more direct comparisons; dragons as main characters, growth over years with flight marking the transition to adulthood, an alliance with wolves, humans as the hated species for the most part, et. cetera, they both have this interesting way of painting the dragon mindset as both very sympathetic in broad strokes and almost frighteningly alien in the details. A simple drive to hunt and eat, easily to understand and empathize with, will end in the casual consumption of a human child, a sudden shock that reminds you that these are not tame creatures, and that sentience does not necessarily imply compassion for other thinking creatures. In this case, that makes compassion a more valuable thing, for its rarity and cost, but also enables that ruthless mindset encouraged by Many-Times-Burned. On the second bit, I have difficulty expressing why exactly I feel like GT feels like Warriors, but I mostly think it's a certain interaction between spirit and physical that the books had at times, though GT is a great deal more defined in that area, and weaves it in more closely with the day-to-day life of the Kin. There was this one moment with a spiritual stone in the books, forgive me for forgetting the name, it's been years, that I can't help feeling would feel right at home with the world of Draak.

(I'll keep posting as stuff comes to me and I get time.)

[Jedi-J2]

The other thing that struck me about the writing is how it usually seemed like the text was less narrator and more the most prominent line of inner thought for the player character (there's got to be a decent name for them, but most of the stuff I come up with could apply just as easily to Twist or their siblings.) There's a subtle disconnect in between the player and their character that is used to great effect, giving the obvious reactions and thoughts as a Kin to the text, and leaving the player to act as subconscious and final decision maker. You have the gut reactions and debate what to do, while the PC maintains a steady line of thought that, paired with you, creates something like an inner dialogue for a more immersive experience than most visual novels or RPGs of this type. It's most obvious when the text formatting shifts to portray instinctive fear, or the rising tide of arrogance, or just comments on your own actions. The last moment before the Dreaming Door, in particular, surprised me, but then clicked and made a great deal of sense. Of course it would be this. It was like this from the start, but I accepted it as so much a part of the world that I wouldn't have even thought this unless it happened. I felt legitimately bad to go through with that ending the first time, and have stopped at that point every time I've seen the Door since. The only other time I was jostled out of the mind of the PC was the Teacher of Emptiness's fourth wall break. Are we doing Undertale now or Oneshot? Actually, I'd love a Oneshot-style take on this game...
Regardless, I love the way you end up feeling like part of the whole that is a Draak, and there were a couple moments there where stepping away from the game caused me to blink and break out of the head-space this game creates. It's strength lies in not giving you a vessel to dominate, like Skyrim does, but instead a persona to slip into, like maybe Mass Effect, though perhaps Planescape: Torment could be a better comparison? There's personality there, even if it flows around your decisions. (I still need to do a hard survivalist/anti-traditionalist playthrough to see if the tone changes significantly, though I am loathe to do so...) I imagine some people who have trouble enjoying this game might be fighting it on that front...

[Hybrid]

I might do speedruns and commission silly artwork, but it's only because I love this game so much.

I think that, aside from the writing being generally vibrant and poetic on a level I doubt I could ever achieve myself, there are a few principles that were strictly followed that I think give Golden Treasure a very special character that is not always shared by other games.

Focus on life - There is no evil emperor to defeat. There are no evil monsters to slay. Your primary goal is to explore the world, learning about it and yourself. Although the No-Tails are largely antagonistic, I think it's rather consistently demonstrated that Draak and humans (including both the antagonistic No-Tails and the player) are a lot alike, too. The No-Tails are not evil by any means. They defend their "territory" (moreso their families/clans rather than any specific parcel of land) just like Draak do, and this Earth ain't big enough for the two of them. Both sides are doing as they believe correct to survive.

Focus on freedom - No matter what you do, you are never really criticized for your actions within narration. You can go around eating No-Tails and eating wolf puppies, and nobody ever tells you that's wrong. Because it's actually normal for Draak to do these things. And MTB even supports it and sends you gifts for being a hardcore survivalist.

And likewise, taking compassionate actions is seen as weak by Darktooth and MTB, but this is just another form of freedom. If you have the freedom to destroy everything in sight, you also have the freedom to protect everything in sight. The creatures you protect are certainly grateful.

I think a little bit of King of Dragon Pass (which is on Ludwig's "favorite games" list) is showing here, because it was pretty much exactly the same way. One of the best examples of Orlanthi morality in KoDP was the Adventurers event[kingofdragonpass.fandom.com], where the singular best answer is to kill the adventurers and take their stuff, for no other reason than that they aren't Orlanthi and therefore are not afforded any of your traditional protections. But if you are generous and kind to other Orlanthi clans, your reputation (a "soft stat", unlike your money or military might) will increase.

Nobody is wrong to do what they're doing - Most of the Kin that you meet have strong opinions about things. Those opinions clash, but they never become false. MTB is not some kind of homicidal maniac -- it just places survival of Draak-Kin and Earth at the top of the priority list, and not even Darktooth or Allmother have a direct argument for that. Allmother's compassion works great for Allmother, but it's just contrary to normal Kin nature. During the Grand Moot, Darktooth is not even fundamentally against MTB's or Allmother's ideas, and would probably agree with them if he thought the ideas would work. He dismisses the ideas based on logic, not on blind philosophy.

Vantage and Tempest also do as they believe best. I liked that you are able to judge Vantage's twisting of Tradition to be either right or wrong. All of the answers are logically sound, but it seems like telling Vantage that it's "right" is the more natural choice -- that rigid adherence to rules can become arbitrary. Warden stands out as being one of the few "philosophically wrong" characters, though perhaps more in an OCD way than a conscious way. Warden's blind adherence to order and symmetry just comes off as bizarre to outsiders. "That tusksnort was perfectly placed! Everything is now OUT OF BALAAAANCE!!!"

This again extends to the player character. You're not wrong to do what you do. It's your life, and your territory you must defend, and the consequences are measured in success or death.

[dragons]

I'm not gonna repeat the points you and Hybrid made, so I'll just say I agree with them.

Especially the lack of judgement wrt your PC's actions, as many games either 1. force you into making "evil" choices & then call you a meanie bobeanie for... doing the thing the game told you to do? (facetiousness aside, I do get what those games are probably (at least, hopefully) trying to say ie. "you shouldn't do things just because someone else told you to", but it's just so hamfisted that it falls flat), 2. what the game is showing you vs. what the game is telling you conflicts (the "Paarthurnax" quest in Skyrim comes to mind), 3. the game thinks there's one "correct" choice & tries to force/guilt you down that path, 4. forget there's a divide between player and player character, especially in RPGs. It's refreshing to see a choice-based game that doesn't do those things.


I'm particularly happy that the game doesn't pretend that No-Tails/humans aren't inherently superior to everything else, nor does it act as though they're Evil Incarnate; both of which are common problems with fiction that happens to feature humans, whether or not the humans are the POV characters. Age of Fire's first book kind of does the former (I'm supposed to believe the elves, dwarves, & blighters aren't developing & humans will surpass all, especially after seeing how the Diadem works? Uh, sure...), though I give some leeway since the Wrimere arc criticises that view. A videogame series (plus its EU) that I once loved for its plotpoints on how species aren't all inherently Good or inherently Evil & all of them (not just humans) have value was actually ruined by the Humans Are Special trope and also becoming sUbvErtInG eXPecTatIonS GoT IN SPACE, so admittedly I'm kind of sensitive to this one.

[Jedi-J2]

I further want to touch on how the pseudo-morality system works. As musicaldragon mentioned, a lot of games simplify down to a good-or-evil dichotomy, and I think that restricts valid answers to either "I'll do the right thing" or "I want to see what happens/how far will the developer let me go?" Here, compassion and a dedication to survival aren't necessarily at odds. It might be difficult to balance the two, but you can develop both reputations while still playing optimally. And wisdom isn't quite a center option either, just more neutrally charged than the other two. Darktooth's solution is an extreme choice, flat out. While it does seem to be the best answer to rejecting both the influence and destruction of the Others, it still seems like there must be a path somewhere between the three, overshadowed by the three elders making themselves into the only answers to the problem. A more centered option by far, though. Telling is that, when following the wisdom ending, it is possible to get the grudging blessing of all three main elders. Hybrid touched on that as well. Handing back Many-Times-Burned's feather feels like saying that, while you understand the reasoning, it has miscalculated, and you think the best chance really is elsewhere. And Allmother will straight up gives you its blessing and becomes somewhat more at ease for having an adherent of that philosophy hedge its bets. Darktooth might be a little more reasoned than the other two, but he works so hard to be neutral that he ends up unable to really find common ground with the others in the way you can. One of my favorite things in games is when I'm allowed to follow that kind of kind and generous mindset without being a doormat. By the third act, it is entirely possible to be known for both. Like, "I might be a bleeding heart, but you'll still pay dearly for every drop you shed." Heck, the single most selfless act in the game that I can think of, rescuing the No-tail child in act 2, requires you to fight an enemy that you won't really be good match for until basically act three, so they can even compliment each other. As a side note, one of my early playthroughs had its end right there, and remains one of my favorite narratives to come out of this game.

Many-Times-Burned had another pivotal moment of understanding for me. I hadn't really interacted with that particular elder much, so I was harboring a lingering idea of it as that kind of borderline psychopath until I conquered the pit and saw a little more of the ideas at play. Still brutal, and still over the line by my estimation, but one particular line from the elder went a long way to explaining and reconciling its actions. "I am hope." Everything clicked after that. Of course that's it. Desperate, blind, ever-burning, never-dying, priceless hope. I couldn't really ever blame Many-Times-Burned for most of its actions after that. Condemn the results and methods, surely, but never again did I find fault in the purpose. Come the "judgement" sequel, I hope we have a chance to take that hope and temper it with wisdom and compassion.

Allmother, on the other hand, ended up frightening me a little despite the more sympathetic viewpoint. The slow fusing of the forest and creatures within... I am reminded of the thing from The Long Earth (I still haven't had the chance to read the sequels in that series). Consuming all with love can be just as bad if it strangles the individuality out of the world. I wouldn't want to see a world dominated by that elder either. I certainly agree more with the path of compassion, but here, too, I hope we get the chance to explore the nuances of the philosophy in the "star" sequel.

Oh, and it just me, or does it seem like Fathom actually holds the title of "Most likely to show up in all of the subsequent games?" The lord of the oceans seems like it would have the most reason of the secondary elders to follow Darktooth, while still having ample incentive to remain with the others as well. Even more, Fathom would probably outlast even Many-Times-Burned in a war gone south, as it could hide in the black depths for millennia until humans were, oh, about at the technological point implied by the "star" ending. Eh, just my thoughts on the subject.

[Hybrid]

Originally posted by Jedi-J2:

Darktooth's solution is an extreme choice, flat out. While it does seem to be the best answer to rejecting both the influence and destruction of the Others, it still seems like there must be a path somewhere between the three, overshadowed by the three elders making themselves into the only answers to the problem.

I'm curious as to what else you think they might be able to do. The objective is to ensure the survival of Draak-Kin in some form, and they're all trying to work around the constraints of the Grey Future.

MTB is trying to prevent the Grey Future (despite this seeming impossible). It already supports a total extermination war against the No-Tails, which is the only hope of reclaiming Earth before it's too late. If the Draak-Kin commit themselves less than 100% to this goal, then their questionable chance of success becomes very poor.

Allmother accepts the Grey Future as inevitable, but wants to try reversing it after the fact. Its plan requires such an up-front commitment, since its followers kind of have to die to kick it off. There's not really any way to make it more moderate.

Darktooth also accepts the Grey Future as inevitable, but is cheating fate with a prophecy loophole. So you say that Draak-Kin on Earth will become extinct? Well, then the only answer is to be somewhere other than Earth. They can't stay on Earth. They can't hide or hibernate their way out of trouble. Like you say, maybe Fathom and maybe some other Sapphire Kin of sufficient power could hide deep in the ocean, but that still leaves all the Emeralds and Rubies with nowhere safe to go.

[DoomMaster18895]

I want to touch on the originality of the setting itself. Certain key features made the game stand out to me and caught my interest because it was, not of the normal.

Draak-kins: Let us get on the biggest, and best part of this game. Dragons or Draak-kins, Kin of the Draak, I love the play on the word dragon becoming Draak and the use of the word Kin. It makes me feel like the word Dragon was a slow degredation of the original word for the species, as is the nature of language to devolve to more simplier or often times take the form of how it seems to be pronounced. Say Draak-kin several times really fast and eventually you get dragon. Its almost like the Godzilla moment in the movie, The 2000 one where the scared fisherman is clearly saying something else but the constant repitition of the words forms Godzilla.

Also on the Draak, follow an almost true biological reality. Dragons are always, for the most part, seen as with four legs and two wings. But this in real biological terms is not possible. Reptiles, Mammals and all Lesser Beasts including Man/no tails, in our world stem from a common ancestors. A four legged creature that walked onto land, so anything walking or flying on this world will thus have FOUR limbs. The draaks remind me of the Dragons used in Game of THrones and it is why I love the series cause Geroge R Martin tries to make even the fantastical seem possible. And since Draaks are dinosaurs, you see the mixture of Bird and reptile with their scales and feathers. They are what dinosaurs, at least some, possibly looked like. Most likely raptors so again the Kin look like something to me that is scientifically possible and I myself personally always like it when fantasy tries for that possibility of reality.

And the fact that Draaks are this way, outside of the often normalized view of what a dragon is in most fantasy, makes them stand out.

The Spirits: Every creature here, Kin and Lesser, even the no tails, have a spirit. The spirit is both a reflection of the creature in question and yet seems to be seperate. The spiritual undertones here are rather fascinating in touching on animistic ancient traditions and old shamanism. You even become a Shaman in the game. But this has dark tones, as we see with the Sabretooth spirit. Possession by, another spirit or are we seeing the creation of the first demon? Something unnatural and alien that it makes even the Draak shiver in fear. To this day I have never taken the choice to take the sabretooth spirits into my Draaks body, im too afraid to find out what happens. And the fact that its a choice is amazing to me, how far would you go to return balance to the world is what it says to me and its a freightening and beautiful use of choice.

Music and Mind: The music is beautiful, no other words to describe it. And music seems to be as how communication is done amongst the Kin and lesser beasts. Song and music were after all some of the first ways we communicated, and if you listen to other creatures howls, growls and such, its all musical in its own way. Sound and vibrations, are how all creatures communicate. Other animals can hear and understand, but it takes some time and perhaps practice before we humans can do it. Thats even show when you first meet the No tail Shaman as a child and the Kin Slayers. No doubt both had to learn to listen in the right way before they could communicate. I wonder if the Draak-kin slayers are able to communicate that way to each other and to the other beasts as well. Maybe they can and don't know.

All in all the setting is unique and speaks to one such as I who seeks out the new and original.

[dragons]

@ Jedi-J2, I'm curious as to why you think Darktooth's choice is "flat out extreme"; I always felt his plan was - if we're assuming the Grey Future cannot be prevented - probably the best course of action in a dire situation, as MTB's solution will fail in the long run & for all we know, Allmother may be the only Draak that could successfully cast its essence forward and/or any Kin that follow its plan could end up like the Bladefang spirits/Stain on the Spiritwood. As Hybrid said, Darktooth is trying to ensure the survival of the Draak-Kin as a species.

Though admittedly I'm rather unsettled by Allmother, both for reasons similar to yours & even if Allmother's compassion wasn't so... all-consuming, it does seem the type to unintentionally cause harm despite benevolent intentions. A prime example of this kind of misguided compassion I can think of is if you express pity towards Twist at the end of Part 1, as you end up insulting & hurting Twist by trivialising its efforts and achievements. Though, this isn't to say compassion is bad - it's generally positive - but it must be tempered so it doesn't become ineffectual or outright harmful.

Many-Times-Burned is considering what's best for all goodbeasts & Earth itself, even if it means forcing its way upon others (ie. MTB pressuring you into taking its side if you have a high Survival score) and driving a species to Total Destruction. It is doing this out of a sense of justice, hope, and - in my opinion - even a form of love, as strange as that may sound.

wrt a possible fourth solution, I don't really see that happening considering the No-Tails are becoming more & more dangerous (see: Allmother being the last remaining Crystal Kin by Part 2 (as confirmed by Writhing Question) & possibly even before that, Warden being killed & its former territory being taken over by No-Tails a few years before the player Draak's Awakening, iirc Vantage says fewer hatchlings survive with each Turning once you defeat it in Part 3, the fact that a Grand Moot was called in the first place...) & it's likely there wouldn't be enough time to find and attempt some form of solution, and it's highly doubtful other Kin would listen to you over the Paragons/Elders.

Not to mention there's enmity on both sides, and Kin like Allmother or No-Tails like the Artist seem to be the exception rather than the rule. Most of the Kin that you can ask about No-Tails aren't favourable, and in fact befriending the Artist can actually lead to the Slayers coming after the player Draak after the Artist is killed, as I discovered in one playthrough.

Personally, I actually like that there's no singular "right" choice when it comes to the endings, nor can you present some kind of fourth solution as - even if you're the Spiritkeeper - you don't have the influence that the main three Elders possess.

Originally posted by DoomMaster18895:

And since Draaks are dinosaurs, you see the mixture of Bird and reptile with their scales and feathers. They are what dinosaurs, at least some, possibly looked like. Most likely raptors so again the Kin look like something to me that is scientifically possible and I myself personally always like it when fantasy tries for that possibility of reality.

This is what I loved, too; in fact, they're highly reminiscent of Ambopteryx[www.smithsonianmag.com], albeit much larger.

[DoomMaster18895]

Originally posted by DoomMaster18895:

And since Draaks are dinosaurs, you see the mixture of Bird and reptile with their scales and feathers. They are what dinosaurs, at least some, possibly looked like. Most likely raptors so again the Kin look like something to me that is scientifically possible and I myself personally always like it when fantasy tries for that possibility of reality.

This is what I loved, too; in fact, they're highly reminiscent of Ambopteryx[www.smithsonianmag.com], albeit much larger.

Perhaps in another time, another place, in another world, with different songs sung. It could have been.

[Jedi-J2]

Just for the sake of posterity and my own conscience, I'm just going to say full, untagged spoilers of the endings and major events from here on.I've been being cagey about that stuff but I'd like to discuss them openly without having even a sliver of doubt about curious newbies. 'Cept the secret ending, but I doubt that'll come up much.

Right, so Re:What else to do?: I don't know. It feels like there ought to be a better option, but my musings over the last day (Truly, a ponderous amount of time, I know,) have only managed to convince me that there's not even the full three. I'll get back to that in a moment. I suppose I'm mostly just irked as to how the elders combine to deny debate or dissent. I can see how they all come to their respective conclusions, I just don't like not being able to "check their math," as it were, even if I come up with the same answers. Many-Times-Burned and Allmother have each other backed into a corner. A war sweeping enough to halt Grey Future must begin immediately and bring to bear the full might of the Kin, but any less extreme variation on the theme of cooperation would require time and commitment that would render a straightforward victory impossible. Allmother is fundamentally betting on the concept that No-Tails and Kin can change their respective natures enough to co-exist, which would theoretically be possible to attempt in the time of The Great Green, but Many-Times-Burned slaughters proponents of that philosophy, or at least the outspoken ones, forcing it to go with the version of the plan that will work around those inconvenient deaths.
Now that I think about it, it feels a little like the ending to the How to Train Your Dragon series, (The books, where it made sense.) at least in concept. "Wait out the coming storm and hope there's safe harbor on the other side." Funny how that works.

On to operation: Newhome. (By the way, as great as our creator Darktooth is, he's kind of lousy with names. :) Leaving the planet is a move that can't be anything but extreme. It might be less so compared to the alternatives, but it kind of takes the chain of thought as far as it could go. Logic, in this case, produces an answer that is no less crazy than raw aggression or compassion. Maybe I'm just ill-inclined to accept that as a sensible answer, even if it is equally valid.
Regardless, taking the long view, it remains a temporary measure. What can be done can be done again. The Kin seem to base their interstellar technology on the remnants and memories of the Other-Creators. Humanity will surely build some similar craft at some point, maybe even helped along by whatever Darktooth doesn't manage to destroy. And a planet that will support Kin will support No-tails. If it was found once, it will be rediscovered when Earth's people are ready. It might take swaths of time that could swallow even elders, but it will happen. There are also the Others to think about, at least two different kinds, and likely far more if the Brightlings' operator is to be believed. And Draak will now have a taste for interstellar travel. The question must be answered at some point, even if none of the current movers-and-shakers live to see it. It might even be that Darktooth is also hoping that Allmother's plan works, so that the eventual reunion is not caked in blood.
Or maybe I've been reading too much Schlock Mercenary. That's a possibility as well.

Allmother's plan also comes with the built-in flaw that it might kill the Kin as a species even if they do manage to change the nature of the No-tails, to give them a Good Way of their own. A being could be one creature in body and another in essence, sure, fine. Can they make more? If the Kin cannot Create, can they be said to have succeeded at all? The best hope, baring a re-creation of form from what is left in the ground, is to do on earth what must be done on Newhome; change, innovate, forge a Good Way from shattered pieces, then bring the two groups back together when they can be more than the sum of their parts.
Unless the Draak-Amongst-the-Others can shift their forms. I read too much Animorphs too.

On a lighter note, and with regards to DoomMaster, I remember reading somewhere that the terms are "Drake" and "Wyvern," with drake referring to dragons with 6+ limbs, mainly the standard western interpretation of dragons. Wyvern would be four limbs, whether upright (Think Rathalos from Monster Hunter), or bat-style (Tigrex/Nargacuga), like the Draak-Kin. (I loved the name thing too.) I generally prefer drakes, but the Draak are just so well-realized that I can't help but love them.
Also, where was the option to accept the Sabretooth spirit? Was that failure-state content? I feel like I've missed half the game because I tended to play optimally. Either way, add that to a future playthrough.

As for the "no right option" thing, I couldn't agree more. A "Best ending" would cripple the game, and I wouldn't change a thing about it. Doubly so because, like you said, the Spiritkeeper (Good enough name for now), is just not the right Draak to make anything like that happen. The Dreaming Door is as close as I care to get to that.
And yup, Many-Times-Burned as Hope incarnate just about works perfectly. Desperate, probably self-defeating, but never-ever willing to just surrender to the void.
As for Twist, I think I'd take a view adjacent to the relevant commentary. I think having pity for Twist isn't necessarily bad, but taking time to express pity in the middle of an openly antagonistic meeting, and from, effectively, a superior position, couldn't be anything other than a deliberate insult. I do love Twist though, and that it was as successful as it was even after being crippled brings me pride to be of the same stock in the game. I'd absolutely love it if Twist came back to be a surprise competitor in the time of Creation, defiantly living still.

On a final note, it is my personal head-cannon that Never-Ever met personally with Terry Pratchett's Death of Rats and gave the "get lost" speech to his face.
Squeak

[Hybrid]

I wanted to give my thoughts on just a few of these quote snippets.

Originally posted by Jedi-J2:

I suppose I'm mostly just irked as to how the elders combine to deny debate or dissent. I can see how they all come to their respective conclusions, I just don't like not being able to "check their math," as it were, even if I come up with the same answers.

I think it's pretty well established that they're kind of arrogant. They're also millennia old, compared to the Spiritkeeper being around 60 or so. Based on what Darktooth says, it's amazing that the Spiritkeeper is even allowed to speak. Although since it's Darktooth who suggests asking your opinion, one must wonder if there's some nepotism going on...

Originally posted by Jedi-J2:

Leaving the planet is a move that can't be anything but extreme. It might be less so compared to the alternatives, but it kind of takes the chain of thought as far as it could go. Logic, in this case, produces an answer that is no less crazy than raw aggression or compassion.

I agree it's extreme in that sense, but I have to imagine that Darktooth went through every single possibility without bias and only stopped when he found a plan that could work. I really like the way that he answers the other two elders. He would support Allmother's plan, except that the idea has been experimented before with no success; maybe Allmother (and the player character) could pull it off, but what of all the other Kin? If you join MTB's war, he even wishes you good luck; he's not against it, he just thinks it's doomed to fail.

I don't think it's any worse than, say, chemotherapy or radiation for a cancer patient, which could make them quite ill but allow them to survive longer than they would otherwise. When no other options work, only the extreme ones are left.

Originally posted by Jedi-J2:

Regardless, taking the long view, it remains a temporary measure ...

All things are temporary. Everyone does the best they can today in the hope that the future will not present too many sudden and unexpected problems.

The Draak-Kin are in immediate danger here and now. Vantage tells you that Draak-Kin population is unsustainably dwindling by the year. There is no more time to search for perfection or a 100% permanent solution. Others with sufficient technology could visit any planet at any time; Earth and Newhome are equally vulnerable and there is no certain escape. But if anyone can deal with an unexpected crisis on Newhome, it'd be Darktooth.

Originally posted by Jedi-J2:

Allmother's plan also comes with the built-in flaw that it might kill the Kin as a species

I think they indicated that Draak-Kin are Draak-Kin because of their Essence (soul), regardless of what their Body looks like on the outside.

Originally posted by Jedi-J2:

Also, where was the option to accept the Sabretooth spirit? Was that failure-state content?

After you defeat it in battle (or Essence-quest), you are given equally good options if any of your Elemental masteries are high enough. The last-ditch option is to take on the Sabretooth spirit without any Elemental assistance, which puts you to Crippled health.

[Jedi-J2]

I'm not gonna say Darktooth is "above" nepotism, I honestly doubt the Kin have enough experience with this sort of social power-play to even have a defined term for it, but having the Spiritkeeper weigh in seems like a solid tactical decision. The elders have a near deific status among Kin, so having the three of them visibly at odds, with the others present but silent, gives an incentive to just keep from getting underfoot, and Many-Times-Burned is the only one actively threatening death for defiance. The Spiritkeeper is the closest thing to a peer most of the present Draak have with that level of visibility, as well as being the most likely, if only due to more direct influence, to side with Allmother or Darktooth. Even if you choose compassion, I imagine open defiance from a young Draak would drastically increase the support Darktooth gets from the more cautious in the audience.

Re: Allmother's plan. I suppose I'm just giving more thought to that same line from the game, wondering what exactly it would mean to be Kin in essence alone. Between the unique way of thinking evident from the writing, corrupted variation on the concept from the Sabretooth spirit, and the ending itself, it's clear it is possible, but it's not clear exactly how much would be stripped away in the process. More to the point, I'm not certain Kin could meaningfully continue as a species. The spirits cast forward by the Spiritkeeper, Allmother, and presumably others are easy to label as still, fundamentally, Draak, but a few individuals do not a species make. Even ignoring the possibility that they can just keep casting their souls back when they die, unlikely and probably undesirable, it would leave Kin on the whole stagnant on earth. The Kin seem to be taught their Good Way in the egg, and humans don't have that sort of dormant-but-individual period in their life cycle. Creating new Kin, even ones with No-tail's form, might be impossible. If so, the Kin couldn't meaningfully continue as a species, and it would leave them clinging to life like the Sabretooth spirit, albeit with a nobler intention than simple fear of the void.
I'm not saying that such a thing will happen, absolutely nothing is certain about that path, I'm just pondering the nature of Essence and soul, and how it will effect what comes next. I have absolutely no idea what lays beyond that horizon, but that particular sequel is the one I'm most hungry for.

A few other things I was thinking about: I touched on this when I was asking about the "accept Sabretooth spirit" thing and on my posted review of the game, but this game likes to make failure as rewarding as success. In particular, I remember trying to sing for the dying elemental in my first playthrough to make it to act 2 (yellow indicator), and receiving something like a poem that I just loved. I actually didn't realize I had failed the elemental check until I came back, did the fire option (on green), and got that stone for my troubles. On the whole, I love that this kind of content is a thing, but I do find myself wondering what I've missed for having excelled rather than struggled. That might be a good thing in and of itself, though, and I will treasure that odd moment as one of my favorite from this story.

I love the way the skill system blends the physical with the mental and spiritual. Maybe I've missed something else that did the same thing, but I found myself enamored with the idea that a skill system wouldn't be "mind or body," but instead the combination of the two in concept and execution. It's best with Water and Earth, but Fire works with it's focus on passion as well. I think I saw someone comment somewhere on Air being kinda worthless in that regard, and I think that's because it gets pushed aside by the riddles posed instead. Definitely an improvement, but it does leave that element hanging out to dry somewhat.

I do love the riddles. A small thing on the whole, but the contest with Fathom was a moment of genuine triumph after the growing worry fear/dread of the challenge and first two questions.

The combat system is the only area where this game really suffers from the low budget. A lot of playtesting would have been necessary for a better system, and it serves its purpose, but it never rises very far above functional. It does meaningfully convey the out-of-the-norm nature of a handful of fights, but it never really engages in the same way the other elements do. I felt a couple of times this sense of going from the beauty of the valley or the Great Green, the events and mood firing on all cylinders for a half an hour or more, to "oh, more of this again. Okay, I guess." The exceptional briefly giving way to something lesser, however great or small the gap. Most enemies melt under venom-strike in two or three turns, and those that don't can be shredded by the shakestick's surprisingly generous pool of uses. The system is both barebones and confusing before you've got a couple of masteries up to three or so, but isn't all that very complex at the end of the game. The codex can give enemy patterns to plan around, but the first two turns are likely going to be utterly random. It doesn't become useful until round three, and if your opponent isn't already on their back foot by then, the knowledge probably isn't enough to turn it around. Never-Ever and Tempest are the only fights I remember actually worrying about without being proven fatally correct. I can think of one exception though, the moment you realize that Bloom's rooster is "calling his shots," as it were. Deciphering the Draak's intent based on the hint and my knowledge of my own abilities was the most fun I ever had with the combat, and I wish that concept could have been expanded on.
I'm not convinced there's an answer to the combat problem beyond "throw money at it until it resolves itself," and the game certain does an admirable job of squeezing blood from a stone, but juxtaposed against the beautiful harmonies of the other elements of the game, it feels like battered instrument, played with conviction, but flat and out of tune in all the wrong moments.

Finally, I want to discuss something that's shortly going to become very relevant. The feathers. As it stands, the feathers gained from defeating the three challengers feel worthless twice over. They have no purpose at the moment, which will soon be rectified, but they hold little value anyways. As far as I can tell, you will receive a feather regardless of how well or poorly you did so long as you drive off the challenger. This makes the possession of these feathers less valuable than the time in the Great Green you are already fighting for. If you gain the item no matter what, than they have no value even as a trophy. The only feather that means anything is Warden's, and even this feels like a triviality next to the artistry of the location you retrieve it from. Still, a more valuable prize for the possibility of missing it. The different challenges posed by the three Kin who would usurp the Great Green feel as if they ought to recognize how complete your victory was. Simple combat that leaves you injured or a narrow victory might be rewarded only with the continuation of your rule, while a display of true dominance would instead give you a nearly literal feather in your cap. One of my favorite marks of mastery over the game is the ability to beat the three challengers at their own games, by their own rules. Whisper's utter shock at your intuition and required superior stealth, and Bloom's chagrined retreat in the face of a "quality over quantity" approach to allies should be further rewarded, in my opinion. Although I'm not sure there's a greater reward for Flare's total panic after you straight-up incinerate a tree than the sheer humor of the image. That particular resolution of the problem sent me into a fit of laughter it took actual minutes to recover from.
I think it might also be nice to be able to gain a feather from Vantage for a particularly successful annexation of it's territory, though I wouldn't press the issue. And I'm not entirely sure you can be said to have actually beaten Tempest, as even the actually threatening endings to that confrontation feel more like waving around a weapon of mass destruction you can barely control than an actual victory.

[Hybrid]

Originally posted by Jedi-J2:

Re: Allmother's plan. I suppose I'm just giving more thought to that same line from the game, wondering what exactly it would mean to be Kin in essence alone...

The plan isn't perfect, but the entire thing is a wholesale otherkin[en.wikipedia.org] reference. There's going to be something lost in the transition; Allmother's followers are giving up not just their Bodies and Treasure, but everything about the Bronze Age Earth that's still mostly wild and green, and has a role for wyvern-shaped Kin. And they're accepting it under the premise that Essence alone is enough, regardless of what else changes.

It may or may not be correct, but it's what they're hoping for. Or as Allmother puts it, "wondrous faith".

Originally posted by Jedi-J2:

I think I saw someone comment somewhere on Air being kinda worthless in that regard

I've said this more than a couple times, and I do mean it somewhat jokingly. Just the main problem is that Elemental Air checks are sparse and not very important (with the exception of questioning Bloom's animal friends), and its passive benefits (chase speed, fleeing from battle) are not relevant much of the time.

It takes a lot of investment to reach the good combat skills like Blink and Shock, when Water also gives you outstanding skills like Venomous Bite and Intuition, Fire increases your overall damage, and Earth increases your overall durability.

In my speedruns, Earth ends up being completely useless because I only do one combat -- against Bloom. But that's definitely not the case in normal play where an Earth lucid dream in advance of a hard fight might save your life.

Originally posted by Jedi-J2:

The combat system is the only area where this game really suffers from the low budget. A lot of playtesting would have been necessary for a better system, and it serves its purpose, but it never rises very far above functional.

I don't see it as quite that bad, personally. I think it's too punishing at low Elemental mastery and too easy at high Elemental mastery, but I otherwise liked the presentation. If the difficulty could be normalized somehow, I think it would be a worthy part of the game.

Also, Flare and Whisper both have their own tells in their battles, although not quite as impressive as Bloom's tell.

[Jedi-J2]

I don't really think the combat system is bad, and I had some definite fun with it a couple times, it's just a noticeable come-down in quality compared to the absolute killing spree the rest of the game is on. Ultimately, it wouldn't be too much of a problem even if it was, out of focus fairly often and over with quickly in most cases, I just think it's important to note the weakness along with the strength. When I think back on the game, it's always the stories the hold my attention, while the combat is just there to introduce the fear of Destruction into your narrative choices, adding weight to the decision to fight.

Although as long as I'm nitpicking, and this is really an insignificant thing by any metric, I do get annoyed by the way checking your inventory from in front of your den wrenches you into your hoard. It was cool the first time, and seeing the riches and artifacts you've collected is always a nice touch, but being pulled through that screen transition just because you wanted to double-check the description of that relic you got two hours ago grates, just a little.
I do understand why though. It's easy to miss interface stuff embedded into the artwork, and showing off your expanded hoard is just too good an opportunity to pass up. Besides that it's baked into the design difference between your two homes.

As a side note on the interface, I do absolutely love the all-in-one status indicator, menu, and text box. It makes it clear that both the narrative described through the text and the gameplay concerns of food and health are all, ultimately, an interwoven part of your life as a Draak. The emerald serpent, a very different design from the Kin, is a good mix of abstraction and truth. The different jewels embedded into the design are comfortably prominent as things to interact with, without being blatantly artificial in more serious moments. The hunger bar is consistent enough to eyeball for a rough idea of how much time you have left, without being so precise that it breaks immersion. The chipping and fading of the interface will always remind you if you're feeling your wounds, but the healthy green is so natural that you don't notice it if you're doing well. The elemental orbs and designs also mange that nice mix of beauty and usefulness, and I spent a lot of my first few playthroughs looking forward to seeing more of the design revealed. All-in-all, a fine example of a game interface being functional and invisible at the same time, although I did spend a few minutes admiring it early on. The ability to always collapse it in order to look at the artwork is a nice touch as well, as is the alternate, minimalist eggshell design from the start and secret ending.

Coming back to the difference between your first home and the Great Green itself, I saw how the two are intentionally juxtaposed. In the valley, you're a trespasser, hunted and with a sword dangling over your head the whole time. Your first home is basically a bolthole, and you slip out to learn and steal moments of life and treasures both. I actually felt genuinely worried that Darktooth would force a reckoning when I grabbed the metal embedded in the cliff. Your things are piled in a mass, meant for a quick grab-and run, rather than the hall of trophies your later den becomes. (By the way, how does a creature about the size of a cat swallow and carry a shakestick, a mask that borders on an actual helmet, a massive (and spiky) lump of antimony, and more than fifty baubles and assorted lumps of precious metal?) Compared to that, your home in the Great Green is lush, spacious, and opens to the sky, or at least the place you start the day is. (Presumably you still actually sleep in the cave.) It feels like a verdant throne overlooking your kingdom, and you can imagine launching from the edge of the pasture and slipping into the sky as each day begins. It really sells how much freedom the Great Green gives you compared to the valley, and repeat playthroughs feel more constrained after seeing what awaits you ahead.

[Jedi-J2]

I've had some more thoughts on the three challengers from act two. I wonder if they aren't supposed to mirror or foreshadow the three elders in some ways. Flare is rather like Many-Times-Burned in some respects, but without the raw strength or the determined willpower that turns the burning elder into such an force of nature. That being most highlighted in how it will cut and run if you bring fire on its same level. (I've also always found it interesting that, at least based on the skill analysis via a water check, you actually can perform a greater feat of flame with less power in the element.) Seeing an equal shatters Flare's resolve, whereas I imagine that the only things that keep Many-Times-Burned from challenging the other elders is simple respect and knowledge that it won't be worth the cost.

Bloom acts as a more discordant version of Allmother, gathering other Goodbeasts to itself, but without the unison that the crystal elder enjoys, nor even the coherence of your own wolf-companions, if you've followed that route. When Bloom is sent away, it does not leave with grace, but surrounded by unfocused noise, vaguely led by the loudest voice, the suncaller. You can become the most prominent voice in the wolves' song, they sung before you joined, and will continue singing when you are dead and dispersed. Bloom's followers would scatter if it disappeared, the song of the group ended in an instant for the lack of its one common theme.

Whisper breaks the mold twice over, first by being a less direct comparison to Darktooth, and secondly by being the only one that is introduced after the relevant comparison has largely been revealed. This is probably the weakest comparison, but I think Whisper acts as another lens of thinking about wisdom. Whisper is clever and intelligent, capable of locating and securing a very valuable and useful item, uncovering its function, and creating a strategy that melds its own talents with the item's abilities into a nightmarishly effective assault. But neither cleverness nor intelligence is wisdom, and it fails to see the value in itself, losing all drive the moment its cloak is removed. Wisdom means accurate self assessment as well, and Whisper sees more shame in its appearance than strength in what skills it had. It is possible that Whisper is truly outmatched in that fight, but it's the loss of the ring that causes the retreat, and not a reevaluation of the situation.

Taken as a whole, the three serve somewhat as cracked mirrors, reflecting their counterparts' general behaviors without embodying the vital pieces that set the elders apart. It also serves to highlight that it is not being an elder that gives you strength, it is the use and cultivation of strength, particularly the hidden kinds, that sets the stage for one to become an elder.

[Hybrid]

I like your insights a lot, Jedi-J2. Thank you for sharing them with us.