Is there any real build variety in this game?

[Bayonnaise]

I'm bad at the game, but it definitely seems like some characters can have a SIGNIFICANTLY easier/smoother time with certain skill/talent builds, than when they don't have those things.

Given the nature of the game, and the extremely limited movesets of each character (3 skills base), it would seem that covering their gaps/touching up things with the found skills really lends you towards certain picks as certain characters.

What ascension level is this game balanced around, and how much build/variety for each character is there really at that level?

[Pvt. Parts]

I just bought the game last week, and I've been going hard over the holidays. I'm level 90, and I can say for certainty that you can succeed with several builds for different aspects.

As an example, I just did a run as the Weaver, and I won with a Spiked/Verdant/Vigor build. My binding weren't hitting very hard, but I was dealing a ton of spike damage when I took hits. I ran with the Shield binding and it was a cake walk. This was a huge departure from my more standard build of running Cone of Frost and Incendiary and stacking Omni damage, but it broke my previous record (with Obelisk) for Spike damage.

I usually run Verdant / Venom for Mosscloak, but I recently did a run with all Smite and Shock.

Obviously if you're pushing higher and higher in Deep Dive, you'll probably need to go with a build that synergies better with your aspect, but you can definitely just do fun runs with whatever you want. They key is to use Vestigial Shrines to push your sets higher, and make sure you're building Vestige Sets that play off each-other well.

Every Aspect has their meta builds, but each Vestige Set is strong on it's own, so focusing on a couple that work together well can work on almost any Aspect.

I think when you hit level 75 you've unlocked all the seasonal vestige rewards, so you'll have mostly everything you need for all builds. You get some vestiges from quests too, but the majority come from levelling up.

[Bayonnaise]

Ah thanks, good to hear there''s a high level player who thinks there's definitely some variety possible.

I'm only level 25; I understand that when it comes to the higher(est) ascension levels, you definitely need to focus/tryhard more - which has me curious what difficulty level the game target balances around.

I'll have to keep leveling up and getting those unlocks, they definitely seem like there's lots that could open up more build (versus the limited set you have when you're starting out).

[Pvt. Parts]

They recently made multiplayer HP scaling a bit... much... so for high level deep dives (15+) you probably need to start playing meta builds, just because it's such an HP grind to get through enemies.

Hopefully the negative player reception to the "difficulty" change gets tweaked, and enemies do more damage, or have wider aoes instead of just a huge HP pool. I think that will widen the variety of viable builds for higher deep dive runs. But for now, you can still play quick runs, deep dives 1-14, and the daily mission with pretty much whatever you find the most fun.

Even the meta builds are boring in high deep dives. A non-meta build might take 20 turns to win, and a meta build takes 15. You're just punching a dmg sponge all day. Gets old. It's less of an issue with diversity, and more of an issue with scaling, but either way, it needs to be addressed.

[Purple Sauce]

I have no idea what any of your are talking about. I have used DOT builds, crit builds, omni builds, HP stacking builds. This just sounds like a lot of not knowing what you are doing or how to build properly for the stats you are using. The only character who I objectively feel is trash is the miner. He does no damage, has less range than everyone else, and doesn't even have good shield augs. He needs a straight up buff. You don't need to play meta builds, you need to build PROPERLY!

[Baronatron]

It's worth trying some gimmick builds and it's surprising how powerful/fun they can be

[Veylox]

No idea, I only really play some combination of poison/burn/bleed with the sets that improve all three. Usually with the sets that give you OP effect on the first three turns too, since even their common items give +2 will and stacking DOTs with 8-9 will means you pretty much already won from turn one.

Basically pick dots => pick the AoE poison spell for easy access to toxic => pick the purple free teleportation spell because it's a no-brainer and much stronger than every other option => win

It's weird to me that this teleportation spell is there as a choice, I can't think of a single run where I wouldn't want to slot it

[Purple Sauce]

Originally posted by Veylox:

No idea, I only really play some combination of poison/burn/bleed with the sets that improve all three. Usually with the sets that give you OP effect on the first three turns too, since even their common items give +2 will and stacking DOTs with 8-9 will means you pretty much already won from turn one.

Basically pick dots => pick the AoE poison spell for easy access to toxic => pick the purple free teleportation spell because it's a no-brainer and much stronger than every other option => win

It's weird to me that this teleportation spell is there as a choice, I can't think of a single run where I wouldn't want to slot it

Because there are other builds you can use to just tank the damage? You don't need teleportation at all and I am spamming 20's.

[Veylox]

Originally posted by Purple Sauce:

Originally posted by Veylox:

No idea, I only really play some combination of poison/burn/bleed with the sets that improve all three. Usually with the sets that give you OP effect on the first three turns too, since even their common items give +2 will and stacking DOTs with 8-9 will means you pretty much already won from turn one.

Basically pick dots => pick the AoE poison spell for easy access to toxic => pick the purple free teleportation spell because it's a no-brainer and much stronger than every other option => win

It's weird to me that this teleportation spell is there as a choice, I can't think of a single run where I wouldn't want to slot it

Because there are other builds you can use to just tank the damage? You don't need teleportation at all and I am spamming 20's.

Might as well tank lower damage with those same builds

[Purple Sauce]

Originally posted by Veylox:

Originally posted by Purple Sauce:

Because there are other builds you can use to just tank the damage? You don't need teleportation at all and I am spamming 20's.

Might as well tank lower damage with those same builds

If I could tank and solo a boss in a group of 4 on level 20 and carry from the start of the boss fight, that should show you that you don't need teleport and you can tank extreme amounts of damage with the proper build while still dishing it out. This game allows you to do what you want within its bounds. There are multiple builds that break this game.

[Purple Sauce]

Here is a simple example of a broken build that you can use 2 demolish challenge level 20

https://imgur.com/a/PltaCHL

Stacking omni damage so you don't need any damage buffs unless you want to go for overkill with multiple max hp+ items stacked into the build. All you need from there is a bit of vigor to proc infinite max HP in any run (especially the final bosses where it's easy to proc this so much you get a free 50-60+ max Hp added onto your build). I also do not use lightening at all at level 20 I'm just doing quests right now and would prefer to be done with them ASAP and go back to finding more builds to use for level 20.

You can use a thorns build, a crit build, bleed, poison, burn, etc. I've used them as well. The only issue I've had is that some characters need specific builds to do anything remotely useful *cough* the miner *cough* rather than others who are extremely flexible in how they can build. Example, for the miner to get a shield from his ability, he needs to kill a unit where he will then get 3 shield. Sounds great right? Well every other class gets 2-3 shield from just using their ability, no kill requirement needed. As such, they can easily stack shield and tank damage. The miner can't do that. In other words, the only way to play the miner is as a DPS glass cannon who steals resources from the enemy to search for better augs which is his only advantage over others. He also somewhat works with the omni build as well, however, he has NO shielding which is required for this build to be efficient, otherwise, you will need to get ALOT of HP+ items rather than just 2 or 3 which is what I normally have on my level 20 runs using this build. I just went overkill here for the memes having well over 150 HP (usually just get shielding because it's more consistent) and a single spear attack was doing 7k in a crit. Yes, I was one shotting the boss with this build so you can imagine that it still does a crap load of damage in 4 player games too even at level 20.

What is the most important is not getting augs, it's getting your sets early on and stacking them. Some sets obviously, work better with other sets ie. HP stacking with thorns/vigor, Crit stacking with magic damage / physical damage+, DoTs stacking with one another and getting the set that buffs DoTs + Damage reduction and so on and so forth. You should also be spending most of your time gathering cash so you can RR as getting dumpster sets/augs is the #1 way your run will end. You don't even NEED an optimized run you just need to get your set(s) going and you're good.

[TheVampire100]

The game has a lot of variety in terms of build. Keep in imnd, while you start with three abilities, the game is essentially an ability crafting game. What upgrades and ascensions you pick can drastically change how you play a character.
It should be also worth noting that playing solo and playing in a group is also vastly different. Playing alone means you need to cover all your bases (damage, sustain, protection, mobility) but playing with a group allows you to shift some of that responsibility on other players.

There are of course some staple picks that can always make a run easier. Personally I think an early verdant set can make a run much easier, especially in solo. The extra max HP mean you get more after boss healing on high difficulty levels and getting max HP is the same as getting healing (something the devs should probably address).

There are also some extremely OP items that will win you a run, like dice of fate for example (which should be legendary and not epic).

But I still think there is enough variety to play around. I played a few runs with a friend the past few days and I tried all kinds of new builds out that I normally never would do. For example, I did a Star Captain tank build, with spikes and lots of shielding. I didn't took a single point of damage towards the end of the run. This was very entertaining.
In another build I created an abolusote monster of a Chainbreaker, killing all enemies with a single attack.

I think roguelikes are mainly power fantasies, find stuff that is strong, break the game, have a good time. And part of that is knowledge. You just need to understand more what works for you and stick with it but don't be shy to experiment around a little bit to broaden your horizon

[Frosty the Pyro]

Originally posted by Purple Sauce:

Originally posted by Veylox:

No idea, I only really play some combination of poison/burn/bleed with the sets that improve all three. Usually with the sets that give you OP effect on the first three turns too, since even their common items give +2 will and stacking DOTs with 8-9 will means you pretty much already won from turn one.

Basically pick dots => pick the AoE poison spell for easy access to toxic => pick the purple free teleportation spell because it's a no-brainer and much stronger than every other option => win

It's weird to me that this teleportation spell is there as a choice, I can't think of a single run where I wouldn't want to slot it

Because there are other builds you can use to just tank the damage? You don't need teleportation at all and I am spamming 20's.

Is the teleport even that good? I am not to the 20 difficulties yet, but I typically just plan my movement, so the run I did with the teleport, it just sat there unused most of the time.

[Purple Sauce]

Originally posted by Frosty the Pyro:

Originally posted by Purple Sauce:

Because there are other builds you can use to just tank the damage? You don't need teleportation at all and I am spamming 20's.

Is the teleport even that good? I am not to the 20 difficulties yet, but I typically just plan my movement, so the run I did with the teleport, it just sat there unused most of the time.

Like most support spells, unless upgraded, no, none of them are. If upgraded then sure they have uses. I much prefer quicken FYI which has an uncommon aug that grants infinite movement, ie. with that cheap aug teleport becomes worthless which is already a worthless spell (like quicken) until upgraded anyway.