True, forced, Roguelite, not sure it's for me?

[MrGowdy]

What do I mean about true, forced, roguelite?

Well, no matter "how good" you are, RNG is still the largest deciding factor of a run success. For reference, I've played enough to unlock all the currently available characters (at least 2 additional beyond starter set).

:EDIT:

I feel there is a bit of confusion that I'll try clearing up. The ultimate issue is you don't get any progression that improves your character or ability to create good "builds"

This game from what I've experienced so far is further from rogue "LITE" and closer to RogueLIKE. As you progress in the game, you unlock more stuff that can show up... and that's it. You don't appear to unlock any improvements to your characters, skills, builds, or choices. Other than "skill" or "game knowledge" assisting you to progress further into the game, actually "grinding" out unlocks and quests does nothing to make future runs better from what I can tell.

[Lavan]

In theory that model is supposed to have the new things you unlock allow for better strategies than what you started with, but I agree its rarely handled well since you have so little control over rng typically.

[MrGowdy]

Originally posted by Lavan:

In theory that model is supposed to have the new things you unlock allow for better strategies than what you started with, but I agree its rarely handled well since you have so little control over rng typically.

Exactly...

New things to get during runs "sounds" like you have more options... But in reality you just have increasing levels of RNG.

The first run, you'll see the same "Cause frostbite on hit" or whatever, every single run. So you can build around that.

The 30-40th run, you'll start seeing bleed, burn, frost, poison.... and it's all completely random so more and more you'll just have a big mess of a "build" unless you hit the lucky streak.

I've noticed they aren't unlocking more re-roll options or more currency drops allowing you to try and counter the RNG.

[15 miles on the Erie Canal]

For context I'm silver 2, but I've never felt like I was ever screwed because of RNG. What I do notice is people either not using rerolls, or burning through their re-rolls and never getting more when given the option.

[MrGowdy]

Originally posted by 15 miles on the Erie Canal:

For context I'm silver 2, but I've never felt like I was ever screwed because of RNG. What I do notice is people either not using rerolls, or burning through their re-rolls and never getting more when given the option.

I think it's subjective? You say "Screwed" and are likely talking about how you got useless or bad choices? Another person might considered "screwed" they didn't get the exact options they needed?

In my case, I'm just saying that the more I play, the more I unlock, the more random each run becomes. I'm not seeing more re-roll options being unlocked, as in more opportunities to re-roll. I'm not seeing more money dropping, so I can re-roll more.

What I am seeing, is more choices diluting the pool, which is what happens in many of these roguelites that forget to add functionality to counter the increased drop diversity.

[15 miles on the Erie Canal]

That's pretty much all roguelikes though. From isaac to risk of rain to hades. Re-rolls ARE suppose to be limited. You get infinite amount of re-rolls and you will always get what you wants. That isn't what a roguelite/like is suppose to be throughout some sort of cheat or tradeoff.

If you're playing roguelites to only get exactly what you want every time on every run then this isn't the genre for you.

One other thing that helps with runs is you're able to swap items with team mates by dropping t stuff. I've been given shops where none of the items appeal to my character, but do my team mate and bought it for them. Rare, but I've done it.

We'll also see what the devs do, if anything, down the line. They could add in scrap options or more ways to control your build.

[MrGowdy]

Originally posted by 15 miles on the Erie Canal:

That's pretty much all roguelikes though. From isaac to risk of rain to hades. Re-rolls ARE suppose to be limited. You get infinite amount of re-rolls and you will always get what you wants. That isn't what a roguelite/like is suppose to be throughout some sort of cheat or tradeoff.

I don't think anyone is asking for infinite re-rolls? That's just exaggerating to belittle an argument it seems? What is being discussed is how the longer you play, the more you unlock, the more diluted the pool of choices becomes, yet the opportunity to re-roll doesn't change. If you have DOUBLE the possible options that can show up, but the exact same number of re-rolls as a fresh account... You're effectively in a worse situation.

Originally posted by 15 miles on the Erie Canal:

If you're playing roguelites to only get exactly what you want every time on every run then this isn't the genre for you.

Again, nobody here is arguing that we play these games to get exactly what we want. It's that we are punished for progressing in the game. There are many games out there that do a good job of it, and are quite popular... And then there are games like this one that follows a very generic Roguelite design. "Unlock more stuff, good luck with your increasingly diverse RNG pool!"

Originally posted by 15 miles on the Erie Canal:

One other thing that helps with runs is you're able to swap items with team mates by dropping t stuff. I've been given shops where none of the items appeal to my character, but do my team mate and bought it for them. Rare, but I've done it.

This assumes you're playing multiplayer. Something I eventually plan to do and might make a very big difference? So far I'm just talking from a solo-player point of view. And I think your added comment of "rare" is in line with my original point. The RNG becomes more and more punishing the further you get into the game, and there doesn't appear to be any systems in place to improve the situation.

I'll sign out by saying go try a game called "Against the Storm" which is also in early access. Just about every single thing about that Rogue-lite is amazing. Their development cycle, community involvement, core game designs, etc.

And most of all, as you progress in that game, you unlock skill tree(s) and points that you invest to help IMPROVE your runs and make you stronger... they don't just add more random choices to the list and "good luck getting what you want" design

[15 miles on the Erie Canal]

I already played against the storm, But this is apples to oranges here. It sounds like the game just isn't for you

[Subz1]

Originally posted by MrGowdy:

Originally posted by Lavan:

In theory that model is supposed to have the new things you unlock allow for better strategies than what you started with, but I agree its rarely handled well since you have so little control over rng typically.

Exactly...

New things to get during runs "sounds" like you have more options... But in reality you just have increasing levels of RNG.

The first run, you'll see the same "Cause frostbite on hit" or whatever, every single run. So you can build around that.

The 30-40th run, you'll start seeing bleed, burn, frost, poison.... and it's all completely random so more and more you'll just have a big mess of a "build" unless you hit the lucky streak.

I've noticed they aren't unlocking more re-roll options or more currency drops allowing you to try and counter the RNG.

While it is true that the more stuff you unlock the bigger the item pool gets, i just went through all my unlocks to check some stuff.
For all 106 items (they call them "Vestiges") that i have unlocked i found 7 items that do something with burn, 3 frost, 2 poison, 1 bleed and 3 spiked. I don't belive that we can count physical/magical modifers to this since they are kinda "general" and work most of the time. Same goes for crit, AP, defensive, generating will, cooldown reducing and so on. Most items belong to this "general categorie" i feel like.
As for your bindings (skills) you don't unlock them since all bindings and upgrades are available from the beginning.
So all in all it doesn't look as bad as it is in my opinion.

[g]

It just sucks that the only progression in the game is unlocking new items for runs. There needs to be at least a way to improve your character.

[Francis Ross]

Originally posted by g:

It just sucks that the only progression in the game is unlocking new items for runs. There needs to be at least a way to improve your character.

[phone] to this. Quite disappointed that there's no character level up system but I guess dev will not add this as few people are requesting it.

[MrGowdy]

Originally posted by xXROSSXx:

Originally posted by g:

It just sucks that the only progression in the game is unlocking new items for runs. There needs to be at least a way to improve your character.

[phone] to this. Quite disappointed that there's no character level up system but I guess dev will not add this as few people are requesting it.

Time will tell. My guess is they will either lean HEAVY into making this a rogueLIKE or a rogueLITE

As it stands, I would classify this as a rogueLIKE, since you're effectively starting entirely from scratch with no additional benefits each and every run unless you count having more stuff unlocked? Which can help.... but can also give you a really bad RNG run.

[15 miles on the Erie Canal]

Originally posted by g:

It just sucks that the only progression in the game is unlocking new items for runs. There needs to be at least a way to improve your character.

This is one of my least favorite things about rogue lites. Because it doesn't feel like I personally improve and that winning is just an inevitability and I'm guaranteed to lose or struggle until I get my stats high enough to guarantee a win.

That was my main gripe with hades/rogue legacy. I'd be fine if it were something like in binding of isaac where it offered only marginal improvements, like starting with a potion or a certain item. But I don't want something like "ten percent increase of burn damage level 1 to burn damage 20% level 2" for example.

[MrGowdy]

Originally posted by 15 miles on the Erie Canal:

Originally posted by g:

It just sucks that the only progression in the game is unlocking new items for runs. There needs to be at least a way to improve your character.

This is one of my least favorite things about rogue lites. Because it doesn't feel like I personally improve and that winning is just an inevitability and I'm guaranteed to lose or struggle until I get my stats high enough to guarantee a win.

That was my main gripe with hades/rogue legacy. I'd be fine if it were something like in binding of isaac where it offered only marginal improvements, like starting with a potion or a certain item. But I don't want something like "ten percent increase of burn damage level 1 to burn damage 20% level 2" for example.

So you want a rogueLIKE that is entirely based on RNG every single run, and as you unlock more "stuff" that can drop during a run, the RNG becomes increasingly more diluted making it even more difficult to pull together a quality "build" in a run.

As a side note, with 2 players, we have literally never lost a run yet. The game balance with 2 people seems to be off (and to easy). Even in 3 ranked matches, we won every single time....

So I'm not saying the game is "too hard" I'm saying it doesn't feel good as it is. I'd rather have progression on my account/characters and then difficulty "sliders" to progress through.

"Against the Storm" is the most recent example I've played that is top-notch. You progress your account, you unlock new stuff, you get stronger, but the game gets harder at the same time!

[Ludokultur]

Originally posted by MrGowdy:

This game from what I've experienced so far is further from rogue "LITE" and closer to RogueLIKE.

That's exactly what I love about it. So many games do the "grind for power" treadmill these days. Happy about every single one that doesn't. :)

[MrGowdy]

Originally posted by Ludokultur:

Originally posted by MrGowdy:

This game from what I've experienced so far is further from rogue "LITE" and closer to RogueLIKE.

That's exactly what I love about it. So many games do the "grind for power" treadmill these days. Happy about every single one that doesn't. :)

Well, if they don't change anything then this is the game for you! Which is good for you! Bad for myself.