The rhythm mechanic is disappointing.

[I Cant Think of a Good Username]

This game's premise has so much potential, especially compared to other similar games that don't focus on metal since metal uses rhythmic elements from so many other genres and combines them in such interesting ways that you don't find as often in other music, but this game wastes so much of that potential to me. The game barely scratches the surface of what you could do with this mechanic in conjunction with the soundtrack.

I've played the drums for almost a decade now so I already have a good feel for tempo and know how to match a beat to a guitar riff, and when I play something like Doom Eternal and get really into it I'll tend to land shots at the same time as a snare hit or along with an emphasised note in a guitar riff, and I've noticed other people that have no experience with music or percussion do the same.
The issue here is, because metal can be so syncopated, the emphasis in a guitar riff might be delayed or played early by an eighth note, or the drums will go to double time which puts the snare on offbeat eighths, but the game only counts fourth notes. So I'll instinctively go to shoot on that emphasised part of the song only to have it not count and ruin my combo because I wasn't shooting on exactly fourth notes. I'll get used to it again after a bit and really start getting into playing along with the music only to yet again try to syncopate my moves like a drummer would syncopate their hits to a particular riff, and get punished for it. Every time this happens I get frustrated with the music itself, the same way I'd get frustrated by another musician for messing up during a live performance and throwing everyone's timing off momentarily.

Over all it makes game-play feel jarring as I'm treated like a fourth grade student being told to count fours in their first ever music class at school.

Timing shots with the music's emphasised notes when they do land on fourth notes doesn't feel very rewarding either since the game is just rewarding actions that land on any fourth note, so if I purposefully skip the last note in a bar because that's what the song is doing, the game doesn't acknowledge it. It doesn't acknowledge skipping a note the song emphasises either. I'm not actually rewarded for playing to the song; I'm just rewarded for keeping a tempo. At that point you could replace the soundtrack with a metronome and the game would feel the same. If anything, it'd probably make combat feel more consistent.

All of this seriously kills any momentum the game has. Metal isn't always moving at a blazing pace but generally the genre feels fast. Meanwhile the game forces you to be incredibly slow with the pace of your inputs, yet it's meant to play like arena shooters akin to Doom, which tend to focus on faster game-play that requires quick inputs and instant reactions to enemy attacks and other hazards that could happen at any second. Do you see the issue there? The game is not only constantly fighting against the music it's meant to be synchronised with, but is also fighting against its own game-play design and the game design of the entire genre it's a part of, simultaneously. I just want to play along with the music, which is what the game is meant to encourage, yet I'm punished whenever I try to do so, and when I do time my inputs correctly at the pace the game requires, I'm punished by enemies that require fast inputs to effectively combat like every other shooter in the genre. Either I time all my inputs the way this rhythm mechanic requires, which effectively forces me to play as if I had input lag on purpose, or I play how the enemy and encounter design encourages me to which ruins my combos and kills my damage output. No matter what, I'm getting ♥♥♥♥♥♥ over by poor game design. There are so many individual elements of the game-play loop that conflict due to this poor execution of the game's core premise.

It sucks 'cause that core game-play along with the animations, environments, art direction, and controls are all done incredibly well and the soundtrack is ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ beautiful, but even if you want to play Hellsinger just for that you're stuck dealing with this core mechanic of timing inputs that doesn't do enough to be interesting and is constantly interrupting the flow of combat if you try to play at your own pace, and I personally believe that's evidence of poor design and a failure to truly realise the potential of this mechanic and concept. Hellsinger is meant to be a game that makes you feel like your actions are a percussive instrument in a brutal orchestra, acting as the driving force behind its violent song. Instead it just makes you feel frustrated.

[I Cant Think of a Good Username]

JustABoomer eredeti hozzászólása:

You keep saying "fourth notes" and I think you mean "quarter notes", as in every beat of a measure in 4/4.

You keep saying "quarter notes" and I think you mean "crotchets", as in every beat of a measure in 4/4, or a 3/4 waltz.

It's all interchangeable terminology. If I say you should cut a sandwich into fourths it'd literally mean the same thing as if I said you should cut it into quarters. Both are correct.

Also, in the demo the pistols still only rewarded shooting on fourths so even if you did fire at eighths it'd ruin your combo and every other shot would do very little damage. Did they change that since?

[I Cant Think of a Good Username]

AUTI5T1X eredeti hozzászólása:

<blank> eredeti hozzászólása:

Sounds like a skill issue.

It isn't. If it was, OP wouldn't have fairly criticized this game. Yet here you are harassing them, and acting rather condescending.

Check yourself dude.

Bro, I wrote a six-paragraph-long essay consisting of 837 words just to say that I didn't like a video-game's design.

That's literally the prime example of when to say "skill issue".

[AltPlusF4]

I Can't Think of a Good Username eredeti hozzászólása:

JustABoomer eredeti hozzászólása:

You keep saying "fourth notes" and I think you mean "quarter notes", as in every beat of a measure in 4/4.

You keep saying "quarter notes" and I think you mean "crotchets", as in every beat of a measure in 4/4, or a 3/4 waltz.

It's all interchangeable terminology. If I say you should cut a sandwich into fourths it'd literally mean the same thing as if I said you should cut it into quarters. Both are correct.

Also, in the demo the pistols still only rewarded shooting on fourths so even if you did fire at eighths it'd ruin your combo and every other shot would do very little damage. Did they change that since?

I mean, sure. I had to look up what the hell a "crotchet" was because after 8 years of school and the 25 years of experience as a performer and educator, not once have I ever heard anyone use the term "crotchet" in the context of music.

Pedantry aside, I didn't notice any issues with the pistols firing eighth notes, but I might not have been paying as close of attention to it.

[Ratch]

I Can't Think of a Good Username eredeti hozzászólása:

I've played the drums for almost a decade now so I already have a good feel for tempo and know how to match a beat to a guitar riff, and when I play something like Doom Eternal and get really into it I'll tend to land shots at the same time as a snare hit or along with an emphasised note in a guitar riff, and I've noticed other people that have no experience with music or percussion do the same.
The issue here is, because metal can be so syncopated, the emphasis in a guitar riff might be delayed or played early by an eighth note, or the drums will go to double time which puts the snare on offbeat eighths, but the game only counts fourth notes. So I'll instinctively go to shoot on that emphasised part of the song only to have it not count and ruin my combo because I wasn't shooting on exactly fourth notes. I'll get used to it again after a bit and really start getting into playing along with the music only to yet again try to syncopate my moves like a drummer would syncopate their hits to a particular riff, and get punished for it. Every time this happens I get frustrated with the music itself, the same way I'd get frustrated by another musician for messing up during a live performance and throwing everyone's timing off momentarily.

Over all it makes game-play feel jarring as I'm treated like a fourth grade student being told to count fours in their first ever music class at school.

It sucks 'cause that core game-play along with the animations, environments, art direction, and controls are all done incredibly well and the soundtrack is ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ beautiful, but even if you want to play Hellsinger just for that you're stuck dealing with this core mechanic of timing inputs that doesn't do enough to be interesting and is constantly interrupting the flow of combat if you try to play at your own pace, and I personally believe that's evidence of poor design and a failure to truly realise the potential of this mechanic and concept. Hellsinger is meant to be a game that makes you feel like your actions are a percussive instrument in a brutal orchestra, acting as the driving force behind its violent song. Instead it just makes you feel frustrated.

Just played the demo and feel the exact same. I thought it was just me. The rhythm game follows its own beat, not the song's. It's like being in a jazz band whose members are doing their solos while you're relegated to being a human metronome. Every other rhythm game understands this. It's like playing DDR or Stepmania with tracks that didn't attempt to match the song. Hellsinger is kind of similar to Necrodancer, but Necrodancer mandates rhythm into the movement as well as attacks and the music highlights the intended beat. It feels more.. cohesive, idk. In this the music feels ignored by the game's rhythm mechanic. When I mute the music I can keep time perfectly but that defeats the purpose of playing a music based game.

[Apocalypse]

CheferyDahmer eredeti hozzászólása:

Do you have any idea how hard it would be to make it so you're rewarded for playing with the song?

Not that hard, just listen to the drums, like a bass player would. I mean, we have a reputation of not being the smartest … so how hard can it really be? ;-)
SCNR.

Anyway, do other weapon not offer different bpm / rhythm?
Sub-devisions would be indeed cool. Do wonder again if some weapons are not fast enough to just do that?

(Sorry, still had no time to play, sooo no idea how they really implemented things, just second hand knowledge from a few guys who absolutely love this game)

[Louis Wain's Cat]

wth is your problem... you're an instrument, yes, but you pick the rhythm to the beat... it's not that hard... It's literally the same as in Necrodancer and BPM...
fast enemies is your problem? You can dash whenever you like... And you will not be punished for dashing off beat
You can play at your own pace, you'll just not get high scores for keeping on beat and killing stuff on beat

[ZooL]

All the bands are ♥♥♥♥ cookie cutter numetal

[cashews]

Louis Wain's Cat eredeti hozzászólása:

wth is your problem... you're an instrument, yes, but you pick the rhythm to the beat... it's not that hard... It's literally the same as in Necrodancer and BPM...
fast enemies is your problem? You can dash whenever you like... And you will not be punished for dashing off beat
You can play at your own pace, you'll just not get high scores for keeping on beat and killing stuff on beat

Look at this clip: streamable.com/1vw2vn
You can see the exact moment where the game breaks the streak even though all attacks were perfectly in sync with the drums. There are 2 options here:
1. Allow the player to shoot on these accents without getting punished for "missing the beat"
2. Remove these accents from the music so the player doesn't get confused

This game opts for doing neither

[AltPlusF4]

cashews eredeti hozzászólása:

Look at this clip: streamable.com/1vw2vn
You can see the exact moment where the game breaks the streak even though all attacks were perfectly in sync with the drums. There are 2 options here:
1. Allow the player to shoot on these accents without getting punished for "missing the beat"
2. Remove these accents from the music so the player doesn't get confused

This game opts for doing neither

PSA: You shoot to the beat of the song, not the specific rhythms in the song or the drums.

Think of it this way: someone who's never heard the song before wouldn't even know what those particular rhythms or drum grooves are going to be before they listen to it enough times to internalize it, meaning that it would take them ages to ever be able to accurately play this game if that's how it worked.

But if they can hear the beat and just keep that steady, they can pick it up instantly and actually play the game. Imagine!

This is how these games work. I don't understand why this concept eludes most people on these forums.

[TheInfested]

As we grow we require more, at a beginner stage as children the simplicity is helpful. This game is not aimed at children, and the desire for more complexity should be expected to keep adults interested. we do not sit on the floor with a speak and spell after work because we have mastered that and it has nothing more to offer. Simplicity and accessibility is fine, but if that's the ceiling there is no room to play and we'll pass it by. Designers should know their audience, and properly target to said audience to avoid confusion and overhype.
The mechanic of growing intensity as your combo grows is fun, but being punished for getting into it and trying to attack to the song, not just to the constant beat is a self defeating decision.
The game employs great music with big names with the announced intent to help you "get into it" but doesn't expect you to get lost into the music, and in fact requires you to IGNORE the music and just mechanically click. no half beats, nothing but monotonous tap, tap, tap. I question if the creators responsible for the rhythm implementation actually like or even listen to this music, have ever even drummed along with their fingers on their leg. Anyone that has would know that, especially in this genre of music, you NEVER tap tap tap the whole way through.

Great promise, entertaining and beautiful DOOM game with a very limited rhythm handicap.

[AltPlusF4]

Bobtacular eredeti hozzászólása:

As we grow we require more, at a beginner stage as children the simplicity is helpful. This game is not aimed at children, and the desire for more complexity should be expected to keep adults interested. we do not sit on the floor with a speak and spell after work because we have mastered that and it has nothing more to offer. Simplicity and accessibility is fine, but if that's the ceiling there is no room to play and we'll pass it by.

This is how life works. I don't understand why this concept eludes most people on these forums.

If you don't like how rhythm games work, then I would encourage you to make your own, rather than waste your time here trying to fit square pegs in round holes.

[Luca Fox]

Bobtacular eredeti hozzászólása:

As we grow we require more, at a beginner stage as children the simplicity is helpful. This game is not aimed at children, and the desire for more complexity should be expected to keep adults interested. we do not sit on the floor with a speak and spell after work because we have mastered that and it has nothing more to offer. Simplicity and accessibility is fine, but if that's the ceiling there is no room to play and we'll pass it by. Designers should know their audience, and properly target to said audience to avoid confusion and overhype.

How old are you?

[myhv]

Oh, this makes so much sense now. I've spent last 5 hours getting incredibly frustrated at the game, 'cause I can only hit "on beat" when i focus on the visuals, not the music. As soon as I get "in the zone", I immediately start slipping, since it's so jarring that a metal song is reduced to a metronome.

[cashews]

JustABoomer eredeti hozzászólása:

PSA: You shoot to the beat of the song, not the specific rhythms in the song or the drums.

Think of it this way: someone who's never heard the song before wouldn't even know what those particular rhythms or drum grooves are going to be before they listen to it enough times to internalize it, meaning that it would take them ages to ever be able to accurately play this game if that's how it worked.

But if they can hear the beat and just keep that steady, they can pick it up instantly and actually play the game. Imagine!

This is how these games work. I don't understand why this concept eludes most people on these forums.

At no point did I suggest that the genre should become less accessible. I actually said the exact opposite, that shooting on specific off-beats could be allowed - not required. My suggestion does not change a new player's experience at all nor does it affect the overall difficulty of these games, so no idea where most of your answer is coming from.

The concept doesn't elude people at all. It's just interesting that the players of these games based around music that are most confused about the game's intention are players that have musical education. If I was a dev making a game focused around music and rythm, that would at the very least be of interest to me.

By your logic, the developers could change all the music in the game to jazz and then just say "PSA: You shoot to the beat of the song, not the specific rhythms in the song or the drums.". In this - arguably extreme - example wouldn't you agree that the music makes the game more confusing? The devs nailed 95% of each song, but these passages make the game unnecessarily weird to play. It would be better to more closely curate the music. The passage in my clip could very easily be changed to use non-off-beat drum/guitar hits while still sounding perfect.

[AutumnWolf]

All of that wall of text just tells me you have no rythem.