Are mistakes a little too punishing?

[Dex]

Note: Please don't take this as a complaint!

I'm making the transition to hard mode currently and I've been surprised by how little room for mistakes there is; like I'll do reasonably well (imo) after practising a song and still often end up struggling for health or failing at some point.

The reason I ask; I come from playing DJMax, which gives you a lot more leeway with mistakes, and places the focus more on improving your score rather than passing or failing the song. Which I think is a nice design choice. The emphasis on passing or failing the level strikes me as a holdover from arcades, and games like GH which have a story mode, but in this game it seems a bit out of place to me.

Please take this as an honest design question and not a whine!

This aint my first rhythm game, I've been practising hard mode for like 2 hours :P I'll manage it no problem (and the practice tools are awesome!). But I can imagine a lot of casual players feeling discouraged from moving beyond Normal difficulty when it might be better to let them fumble through songs a bit more.

[Daverwob]

We've actually had this discussion internally quite a few times. It boils down to accessibility vs sense of achievement when completing something new. It's impossible for us to really quantify which system is "best" (unlimited health or not), but we figure that having extra health on lower difficulties and "clear notes on miss" active by default, most people should be able to get through all of the easy / normal levels.

With upcoming releases on more casual platforms such as Switch, it's definitely an idea we can revisit.

We actually want to have a "zen mode" where hit feedback is much more chill and health is unlimited. This will likely make it in before 1.0.

Either that or single player will be the mode with health and arcade will have unlimited.

As with everything, stay tuned.

[PrimeSonic]

I'd like to point out that Spin Rhythm has an exceptionally good Practice mode.

You can actually practice the song in chunks rather than having to always start from the beginning.

If you're finding a particular part of a song tricky, you can just practice that segment without having to go through the entire thing.

That feature alone, I think, makes it far more far in how "strict" the game can be, since you're given the right tools to be really be able to hone the necessary skills.

[Dex]

Originally posted by PrimeSonic:

I'd like to point out that Spin Rhythm has an exceptionally good Practice mode.

That feature alone, I think, makes it far more far in how "strict" the game can be, since you're given the right tools to be really be able to hone the necessary skills.

I agree, the practice mode is awesome!

But while I'm personally quite familiar with rhythm games, and I'm perfectly happy to jump into practice mode, I still found it odd how easily you could fail a level.

If nothing changed I'd still be perfectly happy, but I'm more concerned for the casual player experience - people that are less likely to use practice mode and feel like they're being locked out of content.

I don't think the fail state needs to be removed completely, I think if someone misses almost every note in a song it's fair game to say they failed it. But giving a bit more leeway with mistakes might make those higher difficulties more approachable.

[ByeByeTango]

You can also play in Spin FM (the online mode), there is no health bar so you can chill :)

But I agree that health decreases pretty fast in this game, I struggled on the last section of Believe in XD difficulty. Even now I fail this part sometimes :(

[Genolla]

I was just about to make a topic about this:

I think it's entirely too punishing to make it so right when you miss a single note, you sometimes lose the chance to play the next bunch of notes. It genuinely makes me instantly want to stop playing the game because no other rhythm game greys out the next 10+ notes just because you missed one.

I am a huge rhythm game fan, I don't just play the ones on Steam either.

[Dex]

Originally posted by Genolla:

I was just about to make a topic about this:

I think it's entirely too punishing to make it so right when you miss a single note, you sometimes lose the chance to play the next bunch of notes. It genuinely makes me instantly want to stop playing the game because no other rhythm game greys out the next 10+ notes just because you missed one.

I am a huge rhythm game fan, I don't just play the ones on Steam either.

You can actually disable that in the settings!

I think it's intended to make mistakes easier to recover from, but I personally found it didn't help much - it mostly just threw me off my rhythm and wasn't very fun.

[Wandering Mania]

I would say that the entire game is overly punishing. Because even with a perfect score you can't ever get a number 1 spot on the leader board. Like I reported and got ignored here:
https://steamcommunity.com/app/1058830/discussions/1/2968394412017641604/
The leader boards are 'first come, first serve'. So those that are on the top spots are there until the boards get wiped, or the boards are changed to a 'more recent players on the top' kind of version.

[Jawah]

So, I think there's two sides to rhythm games. There's the American fun design, and the eastern mastery design. American design tends to favor the idea of fun and engaging gameplay without pissing you off to the point that it's unfair. The Eastern design is more mastery based. osu! is a good example of this. It's early stages are good introductory lessons but gets insane later on or Cytus, a similiar game with less crowd sourcing still get's nuts and both are punishing. That's where a large audience is if you want to keep these games going with custom content or mods.

Spin Rhythm to be is trying to find a balance here by providing strong tools for mastery but giving options for those who are just wanting to play around. I play Expert with constant failure even in earlier songs but, it's part of the challenge for me. It should be punishing if it's "Expert". Same with Hard imo. It's meant to be hard and kickstart of feeling punishment for messing up. So to answer the topic, I don't think there's anything wrong with it. You're fighting against the new variables of the game so therefore you now have a new goal to achieve.

[ByeByeTango]

Originally posted by Jawah:

So, I think there's two sides to rhythm games. There's the American fun design, and the eastern mastery design. American design tends to favor the idea of fun and engaging gameplay without pissing you off to the point that it's unfair. The Eastern design is more mastery based. osu! is a good example of this. It's early stages are good introductory lessons but gets insane later on or Cytus, a similiar game with less crowd sourcing still get's nuts and both are punishing. That's where a large audience is if you want to keep these games going with custom content or mods.

Spin Rhythm to be is trying to find a balance here by providing strong tools for mastery but giving options for those who are just wanting to play around. I play Expert with constant failure even in earlier songs but, it's part of the challenge for me. It should be punishing if it's "Expert". Same with Hard imo. It's meant to be hard and kickstart of feeling punishment for messing up. So to answer the topic, I don't think there's anything wrong with it. You're fighting against the new variables of the game so therefore you now have a new goal to achieve.

I agree 100%.
And the recent messages from the devs scare me.
On one hand they pretend that the PC version is their priority and their main focus, and on the other hand, from what I understand, they consider making the charts easier to be more console and mobile friendly. Sad.
I personally bought the game after seeing videos of certain songs on XD difficulty, because I loved they way charts were done, so I hope that they won't change existing charts, at least.

Take a game like Osu. Imagine you want to make a console version. It would be impossible, or you would have to make 2 different games (one for PC and one for console). Same for Spin Rhythm. Charts (especially in higher difficulties) can't be the same on PC, on console, and on mobile. If they do it, they'll just kill the PC version.

[Jawah]

Ehh I think you're going overboard with "If it hit's console it's dead". Originally this style of game was made for peripherals and still is even for Spin Rhythm. I can see this game working great with most console controllers with the currents charts, and goes back to mastery of the game and tools. Plus on the osu! part they are literally makings a mobile version of Lazer so you can play on tablets and stuff and it's original game was Nintendo DS. Cytus originated on mobile and that was hard. Truth is this game wasn't even made for PC or console, it was made for sick peripherals but just happened to work out for basically everything.

The only thing that will happen to PC is that due to certification for consoles updates might be a bit slower.

If someone can beat Darksouls or other games with a Dancepad while blindfolded, I'm sure they can use a controller to beat charts.

[Dex]

Originally posted by Jawah:

So, I think there's two sides to rhythm games. There's the American fun design, and the eastern mastery design. American design tends to favor the idea of fun and engaging gameplay without pissing you off to the point that it's unfair. The Eastern design is more mastery based. osu! is a good example of this. It's early stages are good introductory lessons but gets insane later on or Cytus, a similiar game with less crowd sourcing still get's nuts and both are punishing. That's where a large audience is if you want to keep these games going with custom content or mods.

Spin Rhythm to be is trying to find a balance here by providing strong tools for mastery but giving options for those who are just wanting to play around. I play Expert with constant failure even in earlier songs but, it's part of the challenge for me. It should be punishing if it's "Expert". Same with Hard imo. It's meant to be hard and kickstart of feeling punishment for messing up. So to answer the topic, I don't think there's anything wrong with it. You're fighting against the new variables of the game so therefore you now have a new goal to achieve.

I'm a bit confused about the point you're making. The game I referenced in my OP was DJMax, a less punishing but more mastery-focused game. As in, you get more room for mistakes before you get a game over, but for players that want to master each level the difficulty remains unaffected. Imo that kind of gives you the best of both worlds?

[Jawah]

I suck at conveying my own points. So I'll try to keep it more concise.

Spin Rhythm's challenge is how complex the charts can be and how often you miss notes on them. You get multiple chances of recovery to regain composure that also regenerate making the mistakes seem minor. I don't think it needs to change based on the tools and the chances you get. If you can't play it yet, then you have to practise still. Overcoming that challenge is going to feel amazing as you progress through whatever difficulty was keeping you out.

Hopefully that's better :)

[Dex]

Originally posted by Jawah:

I suck at conveying my own points. So I'll try to keep it more concise.

Spin Rhythm's challenge is how complex the charts can be and how often you miss notes on them. You get multiple chances of recovery to regain composure that also regenerate making the mistakes seem minor. I don't think it needs to change based on the tools and the chances you get. If you can't play it yet, then you have to practise still. Overcoming that challenge is going to feel amazing as you progress through whatever difficulty was keeping you out.

Hopefully that's better :)

I think depending on your goals in the game the difficulty remains unaffected either way though.

My outlook is that I'm more interested in improving my score, getting a B/A/S Rank, Full Combo etc. The fail state being so trigger happy just means I need to live in practice mode for longer than I'd like, and sometimes fail songs that I overall performed well in. And it also has the effect of scaring casual players away from the higher difficulties, as they're less likely to dedicate time to using practice mode.

For the people that enjoy the emphasis on pass/fail it'd be good to still have that option in the game, which is why the dev suggested having 2 modes.

[Jawah]

I don't agree with the failure being trigger happy. On a personal level most Rhythm games I've played usually feel this way so I'm accustomed to it as a normal trait these games have.

That being said I see where you're coming from. It's something that I wish more games would allow tweak-able difficulty to cater for accessibility. But the solution presented makes sense with the zen mode to tweak aspects of the game as you mentioned and the highlighted reply.

Im not trying to gatekeep you from hard or anything, I just think they've cracked it just right where it's forgiving and when it needs to be and challenging.

[Kaarel]

My only nitpick has always been the transition from Expert to XD, being able to FC in Expert but not being able to even clear 10% of the same song in XD difficulty is a big turn off. Gets way too crazy and it even introduces the beat holds as new mechanic, when it doesn't even appear in expert.

At least introduce all the new mechanics in expert and just make it harder in XD