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讨论规则及指引
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Mmm. Something to look forwards to, I suppose. Still, the real problem is that you can literally reach every available skill and spell by level 7. And while the constant free respec function is a nice touch in general, it means that you can swiftly and easily move your points around to try different skills - so by the time you hit 'bout 10, you'll basically have the skill-lineup you're going to be using for the rest of the game. No surprises, no new spells found in ruins or earned by performing great deeds. No big strategic gamechangers. Even the Cultural Skills don't change much, seeing as getting your first fort established in each region takes very little time.
Also: Level-scaling. I despise level-scaling on principle, since it A: Sucks all sense of accomplishment out of leveling up - YOU got stronger, but all the monsters inexplicably did too, so what's even the point? And B: Virtually never provides the kind of 'balanced difficulty' that it's supposed to - there's always more than one way to get stronger, so you'll either wind up with a difficult slog or breezing through everything, depending on how you've balanced leveling with acquiring new equipment.
That said, I do wish abilities and spells were a little more diverse, as well, but I see why they streamlined things the way they did. I like being able to change abilities around, and just having the stats tied to the abilities is a nice touch in simplified synergy. But it does make the combat feel a little flat. I've either got a spell for that - and the energy to use it - or I don't. There's a lot less of figuring out how to best use what you have to get through a tough situation, since what you have is so limited - there's really either a solution or there isn't, and if there isn't, you probably just need to run back to a town and try a different setup, which takes some of the excitement and skill cap away from it, for me. I like finding ways to fudge things, mix/max characters, and get by situations with the skin of my teeth - choosing between two or three spells in a given situation, and knowing it could go either way.
Anyways, I'm keeping an open mind - I do like the forward thinking of it, in any case. I just hope this game serves to inform future installments , as Spiderweb continues to carve out their own niche and expand on their tried-and-true ideas.
The fact that most of your scaling comes from leveling up and not from gear (except autoattack damage) also makes the game more deterministic and meh looting-wise.
The rate of equipment power increase is super marginal. I like the (limited) variety of plus skill items as well as the unique bonuses (shield ally, confuse aura) but these are few and far in between. The two once per rest I saw were also underwhelming. 50 HP/1 energy for stunslow a few turns or a one use teleport are not interesting items to keep around. Only around endgame did a few interesting augmented appear (9% haste and 15% magic resist) but I didn’t even swap out for any of the items found in the underworld dungeon maps.
But even if it doesn't bother me, at least not yet, I admit combats would need more mechanics. But I don't remind Spiderweb games that good in this area, but ok perhaps better. It's not adding elemental that will change much, you often end with many duplicate spells that are copy/paste but for element, never found it interesting. But more mechanics for players and enemies, probably yes.
As far as the skills/spells go - I think it is a nice cross between Avernum and Avadon. Considering the size of the world, and that the goals of this game are drastically different from previous Spiderweb series, I think it fits.
I've been able to create some neat hybrids such as fighter/mage, or fighter/cleric, without feeling like I'm missing out. Whereas in Avernum, I felt if I strayed from the path, so to speak, I was crippling my characters.
I also like the cultural abilities too!
I too thought the world was tiny at first - but again, I think once I started get more and more invested in the story, I could see why it was set up that way. I know that I've already "missed out" on several arcs/branches whatever you want to call them, due to certain choices I've made. So all I can assume is perhaps the world is "smaller" considering there may be more chances to start over on this game?
Anyway, great post. A very solid and fair review/sharing of thoughts. Did you post this as a review too? I think Jeff Vogel and Spiderweb would appreciate a quality review such as this.
The same with Skyrim. It is cool for a while - then tedious. In Queen's Wish I think the amount of items that can be looted have been streamlined, perhaps a bit too much - I still wish lamps, different types of edibles, etc. were in the game. But perhaps they felt with the addition of resources for the buildings and crafting - it'd be too much?
Because if you think about it - each shop we build offers a variety of nifty functions that require the "harvested" resources. Better weapons, magic weapons, backpack size, runes, etc. So much like BlackDragon was saying the world is smaller - maybe we are looking at the world with Avernum eyes! Ha! If you catch my drift?
I know Queen's Wish is supposed to be another trilogy so I guess we just make sure our feedback is heard. Because Spiderweb does an excellent job in regards to their fans.
And I completely agree that the skill/spell system is sparse to say the least BUT as someone else mentioned, this system lets me create fighter/mage hybrids much more easily than before, and fighter/mage hybrids are my absolute favorite characters.
I'm really hoping the rest of the trilogy gets made because I'm curious to see how this system grows and changes.
The skill-system certainly DOES make it easy to create Spellswords and Paladins and whatnot... in fact, a bit TOO easy. Like, once you hit level 20, you basically HAVE to, because you'll have run out of worthwhile Fighter-skills to put points into. NONE of the skilltrees have enough decent abilities to justify making a 'pure' character, even when Cultural Abilities are added to the mix. Also, it seems just a BIT problematic that 'clerics' can't use arcane gear unless they put points in 'mage' - it works, sure, but in a 'two wrongs makes one right' kind of way. If there were enough decent Support-spells to make you want to keep putting points into those, you'd be left with a 'cleric' who could only wield basic weapons and wear low-grade leathers. But there isn't, and five points of 'mage' will get you access to all the Arcane gear. (Or, alternately, 1-3 points of 'warrior' gets you top-grade bows and leathers for your Ranger.) Which is fine, but what if you just want a CLERIC? What if you just want a MAGE, and not a Mystic Theurge? What if you just want a Warrior, and not a Paladin or Spellsword? Only 3 skilltrees, all in sore need of some high-grade fertilizer. It's just too little to work with...
(Oh, and as BenSt88 says - please, guys, use spoiler-tags if you're going to discuss late-game encounters and stuff like that.)
With fire, ice, poison, electricity and magic, it would be 4 time more attack spells, for what, just pick the right element as if this decision tree has anything interesting. It's like blunt, slash, pierce, sigh.
I understand the realism problem, and the game should have only use magic and be more inventive on visuals to bring diversity. But it's cosmetic.
The lack of mechanism is a much more valid quote in my opinion. Sleep, barrier, slip, jump, wall, line aoe, regen, more.
The role-playing aspects made me very happy, and I like the way it feels as if my decisions had ongoing value, and I have to say that I'm curious how great of a difference my character personality can play as the game goes forward. I'm going to wait a bit before I do my next run-through so my choices will seem fresh again. That said, as good as that aspect was, I get the impression that there were some thoughts about doing more with the various territories including the areas of Haven itself. I would have liked to do more in each of them, including, perhaps, bestowing titles on some of the loyal NPCs or even my party before (SPOILER EVENT) happens. Similarly, I would have probably sent some of the NPCs back and requested replacements.
I'm ambivalent about the fort-building aspects of this game. Yes, there's the fact that it provides an unlocking system for various goodies, but it seems as if there were just enough options for the amount of upkeep, and so all the forts eventually came out the same. If it were a situation where there were a greater variety of buildings, there would be more of a consideration as to what to build overall. Also, various "trophies" should have been available as decorations in the forts for additional morale. I'm sure there's more to develop here, too; I'd likely comment about more of this, too, if it wasn't 4:30am here.
Still, credit to Jeff where credit is due--this was a great experiment, and if it keeps him from going stale, all the better. I want to see where this series winds up going
This Avadon weakness is only partially covered by skill unlocking multiple aspects. At end it's relatively limited, not bad, but limited in amount of builds.
The very free skill system of QW seems much more interesting when you look at it openly, but I don't have yet a conclusion, Avernum last reboot was already quite simplified compared to Avernum.
If you look at all recent games including remakes, the class/skills system seem all very limited by a design requirement of showing everything linked on a single very small panel.
For some reason I don't understand, the skills panel can't be almost full screen, I'd say it could be a bit smaller than the minimal resolution supported by the game.
So in my opinion the dev decided to focus more on combats and difficulty tuning and less on skills, from a perspective of dev cost and priorities.
But the problem is to compare with IP RPG that blow out most video game RPG systems, and to compare with AAA RPG.
I'd says that for me, QW is still the most interesting party building Spiderweb game. It comes from the building, equipments, lite expedition, respec, amount of skills, skills levels bonus. But I have the intuition that it's because I didn't dig enough Avernum series (first remake), and last Avernum remakes for now failed appeal me. This making my comparison with them too superficial. Also for QW I started at Normal, then switched Veteran and it's only then that the party building get interesting, I even regret there isn't a difficulty between Veteran and Torment.
All in all, I would tend agree that:
- First skills panel should rise to close to fullscreen, or at least the min resolution size supported. A lot for the psychological effect.
- 6 skills levels wouldn't hurt, but this wouldn't solve the ability to check them all relatively quickly thanks to a very open system that need be kept and developed in my opinion.
- More mechanisms, but hardly through elements.
- Make spells all magic and work on visuals not based on elemental cliché, to improve realism feeling.
I think that too many elements can be ignored at Normal, hence it's easy to be lazy and miss the point. Dev had a comment that Normal was well setup so any party building could make it, even if with more or less difficulty, perhaps it was a bit too much for what is the party building system.
Switch from Normal and lazy party building to Veteran is a bit rough, but thanks to respec it's doable. I think it took me 2 dungeons, but had also some margin for forts buildings and equipment unlock and buying.