Install Steam
login
|
language
简体中文 (Simplified Chinese)
繁體中文 (Traditional Chinese)
日本語 (Japanese)
한국어 (Korean)
ไทย (Thai)
Български (Bulgarian)
Čeština (Czech)
Dansk (Danish)
Deutsch (German)
Español - España (Spanish - Spain)
Español - Latinoamérica (Spanish - Latin America)
Ελληνικά (Greek)
Français (French)
Italiano (Italian)
Bahasa Indonesia (Indonesian)
Magyar (Hungarian)
Nederlands (Dutch)
Norsk (Norwegian)
Polski (Polish)
Português (Portuguese - Portugal)
Português - Brasil (Portuguese - Brazil)
Română (Romanian)
Русский (Russian)
Suomi (Finnish)
Svenska (Swedish)
Türkçe (Turkish)
Tiếng Việt (Vietnamese)
Українська (Ukrainian)
Report a translation problem
Discussions Rules and Guidelines
0 
Report this post
This goes for Sein too.
Spoilers for the first game, you should've played it already if you're here so, i'm not going to bother using spoiler tags.
Naru dies at the beginning of Ori and the Blind Forest, and then Gumo uses the light to bring her back, some have criticised this moment as being incredibly cheap and in a way it is. So the first game is far from perfect story wise.
But Ori and the Blind Forest is not a bad game simply for this moment and nor is Will of the Wisps for its shoddy ending either.
But while i'm here I want to address another thing Thomas said since its been on my mind:
Argumentum ad populum. A logical fallacy meaning that it must be true since a lot of people agree with it. I could say that too, look at how many people in this thread agree with me, I MUST be right! No, that's not how this works.
First off, most people don't complain; and quite a lot of people are happy with anything you present to them. A lot of people won't have even beaten the game. Some won't know how to contact you in the first place.
Saying that is a way of trying to dismiss our negative opinions by saying "Hey all these people like our ending, so its fine for me to ignore you".
This is why some people think your response here is patronising. Your overall post there was incredibly dismissive.
Voice: "(...) The Wellspring needs us."
Kwolog: "Yes. Go to the Wellspring (...)"
In this case aguing with "Argumentum ad populum" is a little bit problematic. This counter-argument only works really well if there is an objective truth. But "good/bad ending" has no real objective criterias, only subjective ones. There are some "rules" that can try to tell you if a story/ending will be perceived as good oder bad boils, but all they can do is give you some sort of prediction. In the end boils down to the question how many people like it and don't like it. When the vast majority thinks a story is good, then it will be decleared as good and vice versa. You could say, then it (at least statistically) "makes" the story good or bad.
Still; at least BL’s story doesn’t collapse under its own weight.
Something I find interesting is that in life, we don't always recognize everything for what it is while it's happening. It's only with hindsight that we can look back and see the importance or relevance of different moments in our lives. In the same way, I think there's value in only recognizing some of the story's clues on a second play through, with an additional level of awareness.
Taking that into account, some of these hints I believe can and will be picked up on by perceptive players in the moment. Others are more noticeable the second time around. Knowing the ending gives you the frame of reference to make those connections and experience the story on a different level than the first time.
Prologue:
Starting Screen - The game begins with Ori standing out looking to the Spirit Tree in the distance. Birds fly across the screen. In this opening visual, the story of the game is already presented - Ori (the present), through a yearning for flight (Ku) will be carried into the future (becoming a Spirit Tree) This is not something that a player is expected to pick up on during their first play through. But if you were to play the game again, it becomes more apparent that we're foreshadowing everything to come from the very first moment.
Prologue winter season - Naru and Ori can be seen in the background, building a snowman representing Naru's father (recognizable if you’ve played Definitive Edition). This is another tribute to the cycle of life: The memory of one generation living on through love, and being taught to the generations that follow. Even after someone is 'gone', they live on.
Kuro constellation in the sky - If you find the secret area in the prologue, you will see a constellation form the spirit of Kuro in the sky, watching over Ku. Ori's sacrifice in WOTW echoes Kuro's sacrifice in Blind Forest. After Kuro's death, Ori's family took on the responsibility of caring for her last child. Much of the game revolves around Ori living up to that implicit promise. Either by helping her achieve her goal of flight, searching for her, or doing everything possible to protect her. Seeing Kuro's imagery in the sky shows us that even after her sacrifice, she lives on, albeit in a different way than before. This is another nod to the culmination of Ori's story, and that Ori will live on as a protector, even after entering a new phase of life.
Narration - In WOTW the narrator does not refer to Ori in 3rd person, and instead uses 'we' or 'our' when referencing Ori and Ku. To clear any confusion: the Spirit Tree is the narrator for Blind Forest, and Ori is the narrator for Will of the Wisps. This switch plays on an established expectation, and for many people this leads to a satisfying moment as they realize the narrator was Ori this time around. An observant player could notice this change in narration style between games, but it's more likely this becomes clear on a second play through. Once you're aware of the narrator's identity, it's very obvious when playing again.
Act 1:
When Kwolok tells us the Willow's backstory, we learn that it was a natural event that caused the light to shatter. It was the Willow's end: It's life cycle was complete. This is already hinting to a difference from Blind Forest, where the light was stolen from the tree in an unnatural event. Here, the tree grew too old and frail, and could no longer continue. This is an important piece of information: It foreshadows that the Willow cannot return in the same fashion as the previous game. Many players will have the same expectation of the game as Blind Forest: that we will simply heal the tree. We don't want to give everything away here, but the situation being similar yet different is touched on in this cutscene.
Act2:
Mora - Tells us it is good we retrieved the light, and that it belongs where it will shine the brightest. There is a double meaning here: The wisp belongs with us, where it will shine brightest, not in Mouldwood. Also, the light that will be reborn belongs with us, where it will shine brightest, not with the Willow.
Kwolok - Implores us to watch after the Moki for him. This is alluding to Ori's transition from the role of a child into the role of a guardian/parent. Ori will take on the responsibility of being a protector, to stop the pain and suffering that others have gone through. The transference of responsibility between Kwolok and Ori is direct foreshadowing of the transference of responsibility between the Willow and Ori at the end of the game.
Kwolok also mentions that we may not be able to undo all the damage (hinting to the Willow, and Shriek) but we can still give Niwen a second chance (a new age of balance). When he asks us to watch over the Moki and Niwen, he tells us we may be the only one who can (hinting to the succession of the Willow Tree)
Baur - Mentions that the summer of the past is gone, never to return. A new summer will rise to take its place. Although it appears Baur is speaking only about the seasons in the Reach, the subtext of his statement is about the larger cycle of life. The summer of the past (The age of the Willow) is gone, never to return. But because of us, a new summer (the age of the Ori Tree) will rise to take its place.
Planting the tree in Wellspring Glades - Kii tells us 'Perhaps there is hope, yet, for new life. Perhaps the last seed will become the first tree.' On the first reading, it appears that he is simply talking about the Ancestral tree from the side quest. The subtext here is that the last seed (Niwen views Ori as the last spirit) will become the first tree (a new spirit tree that will be the start of a new age). Ori will bring hope for new life (a new age of balance). The creation of the Ancestral Tree in the Glades with the last seed is a microcosm for Ori’s story.
Act 3:
Windtorn Ruins' murals - The Voice of the Forest gives us a more detailed understanding of the relationship between a light and its corresponding Spirit Tree. Since we're close to the end of the game, this is where the hints become much more obvious. Seir reiterates Kwolok's statement from earlier in the game, citing 'the Willow's passing', to remind us that the Willow's life has ended.
The Willow - The Willow's speech gets even more direct, since by this point we want to make sure the themes and ideas we've been building over the course of the game are understood. However, even that might not be enough. For some people, they might not make the full connection until the sapling sprouts from the ground. Or, they might not realize this tree is the same entity as Ori, until it calls itself Ori in first person.
My reply is getting long so I'll try to wrap it up. There were two main points brought up in the initial post:
"the tree references Ori in the third person, and for all intents and purposes IS a different person" - The narrator in Blind Forest is the Spirit Tree and references Ori in third person. The narrator in WOTW is the Ori tree and does not reference Ori in third person. This might be confusing the first time around, as the game does play on your expectation that it's the same narrator. But, they are different entities and the switch in style confirms that the tree in the epilogue is Ori.
Someone also asked if the Ori Tree can communicate with their family, which appears to be hinted at during the montage. In Blind Forest, the Spirit Tree does communicate with Ori while telling us the tale of Kuro’s misguided will. At the end of WOTW, the Willow Tree also communicates with Ori. While not explicitly shown, it stands to reason that yes, the Ori Tree is able to communicate with Naru, Gumo, and Ku.
"There is absolutely no foreshadowing at all until at the VERY end" - I hope the examples posted above have shown the foreshadowing in the game.
That said, the right amount of foreshadowing is a delicate balance. I've seen streams where players pick up on what's happening well in advance and predict the ending. But I've also seen comments where people said they were blind-sided by the ending and it wasn't foreshadowed at all (or only very late). Everyone is going to experience the story a little differently - for some the foreshadowing will be too obvious, for others not nearly enough, and still there will be others who find it to be just the right amount.
Even if the hints aren't completely on the nose while playing, we wanted to create a subconscious impression of the theme of the game. Whether or not that was successful will of course be up to each individual's experience. Different people will have different tastes about what was the right amount, or just how heavy-handed should it have been. That's perfectly fine.
The best I can do is outline some examples of foreshadowing above, to help show that there was planning and thought put into it. Little breadcrumbs were sprinkled throughout the game. This may or may not make a difference to anyone, but might still be interesting to read about the thought process. Thanks for your comments and interest in Will of the Wisps' story.
Disappointing really but whatever.
Thanks a lot for coming here to post that. It's very rare the writer of anything explains the mechanism behind the story in a forum and I'd like to say it's much appreciated.
I'm not really one of the people arguing about foreshadowing so much as the unpleasant implication Ori's sacrifice is more tragic than it really is. When you get down to it he's an acorn and his best case scenario really is becoming a new tree. To me, then, the critical points showing that Ori isn't suffering as a tree come from the general expectation that any acorn would like to become a tree, how he looks at the Spirit Tree at the beginning, and how he is apparently able to communicate. Personally that doesn't seem like a lot to suggest Ori is fulfilled so much as putting up with his fate.
What I think is really important is what isn't shown: Ori anticipating the restored forest. If he wants to serve as the protector of Niwen we should see a glimpse or suggestion that he's taking this role on gladly. When he makes his sacrifice everything focuses on the past and what he thinks he's losing and not what he thinks he's achieving. The end narration doesn't express Ori's opinion on anything that happened, just that it did and the Wisps willed it. We don't get the implication really that he agreed with the wisps, that he wanted it, or that he's content.
I'm just going to repost what I've written previously in case you didn't see it before because it makes my position clearer than what I just typed:
By the way, I spend quite a bit of time writing up a narrative analysis. I don't know if you had any time to read through it, but it would be great to hear your thoughts. I at least tried to be objective and fair.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1boGkSECckt7JEmnFsZypARR2X90Kj8SV/edit
@JEREMYGRITTON:
I think some of the foreshadowing I would have never recognized, since some of them are, even very poetic, also very cryptic. The "Kuro in the stars" for example still looks for me more like a very touching easter egg and less like an actual hint. On the other hand other hints are really interesting, especially the hints that tell you that you cannot go back to the old status-quo.
Still, aside from foreshadowing I think there still will be people who will point out that the question remains why the old Willow just died away without making the proper preparations for a successor before any Decay can spread. I for my self have found an answer: He didn't know when he will exactly die. Maybe the Willow even began to prepare but it was already too late. Since Ori 1 we already know that everyone makes mistakes, even Spirit Trees. But that's just "my" answer to the question. ;)
About Ori the Spirit Tree talking to family: That's good to hear. This gives the whole scene an even more hopefull tone. But there is still one question remaining that bothers me the whole time:
In the ending scene, where everyone laughes, did Ori tell a joke? :D
I agree with Quantum. I still think that Will of the Wisps' story isn't complete, but, anyway, reply from developer clarifies a lot of things.
Now I understand the sacrifice.
This is a bit of a tangent, but there's what I view as plot foreshadowing and thematic foreshadowing. Plot foreshadowing is specifically referencing things that will happen, usually by indicating what will happen or the means by which the happening will be achieved. The infamous Chekhov's Gun is the easiest example, as its mere presence implies someone is going to get shot. Otherwise why introduce the gun at all? Especially with something as enormously complicated as a video game, if something is introduced it's introduced for a reason. There just isn't the budget for the truly extraneous.
Thematic foreshadowing ties more into the emotional core of the story, foreshadowing the story's message and what you will--ideally--take away emotionally. By its nature it's very, very subtle, and it has the unfortunate catch that if someone hasn't latched onto the theme this type of foreshadowing doesn't work or gets confusing.
Personally I think there was a lot more thematic foreshadowing than plot foreshadowing, but there was still plot foreshadowing.