"lucky" or "menacing" ?

[Lazy Joe]

If you can give 5 accessories of yours either "lucky" prefix (+4% crit chance) or "menacing" (+4% damage), how would you combine them?

5 lucky?

5 menacing?

Or mabye 3 menacing and 2 lucky or other possible way?

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I tried to do some number experiments

Let's say a weapon (without prefix) deals 50 damage and has basic crit chance 4%,
an average result would be:

with 5 lucky accessories:
( Crit Dmg * ( crit chance + 5 * "lucky" ) + Dmg * ( 100 - ( crit chance + 5 * "lucky" ) ) ) / 100
= ( 50 * 2 * 24 + 50 * 76 ) / 100
= 62

with 5 menacing accessories: Dmg = base Dmg * 1.2
( ( Dmg * 1.2 * 2 * Crit Chance + Dmg * 1.2 * ( 100 - Crit Chance ) ) / 100
= 62.4

However, 2 lucky + 3 menacing seems to produce the highest number in THIS case: 62.7

============================

With higher crit chance ( >16% ), 5 menacing becomes the better choice in average result.

Damage = 50, Crit Chance = 17%

5 lucky => 68.5
4 lucky 1 menacing => 69.16
3 lucky 2 menacing => 69.66
2 lucky 3 menacing => 70
1 lucky 4 menacing => 70.18
5 menacing => 70.2

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but this is just the average result, what if that you are so unlucky that you never deal a critical strike?
what if that you are so lucky that you only deal critical strike?

So what is your personal choice, depending on other factors, like your armor or your choice of weapon?

[FDru]

Originally posted by Doop Snogg:

The unarguably objective, correct, unbiased answer, expressed in mathematical terms, is...
Damage is always better.

Because of how defense works and how crit works (2x damage applied after defense reduction) you will have a higher dps against anything with any defense above 0.

Well that's just false. The entire point of the thread was to illustrate that damage and crit work off of eachother and stacking one or the other is not optimal. It is true that damage is superior with low damage weapons against high armor targets, just for simply overcoming their defense, but after a point adding another 4% base damage is not nearly as much damage as 4% crit (which acts on total damage).

So while you always want a healthy amount of damage, using 1-2 crit mods is still a good idea. After WoF expert you can go 4-2 damage / crit which I think is the best.

[Clint Howard]

for expert mode, you want warding

[TheOne320]

Necroing this. I went the warding route on Master mode, but now I am noticing that the stuff that kills me is normally the one-shot stuff like Martian Saucer Deathray. I am not playing hardcore, so dying a few times to learn mechanics does not bother me. There are 7 slots in Master. What is the current opinion on "lucky" or "menacing"?

[Morior Invictus]

Menacing all the way. Warding becomes pointless once you learn how to not get hit.

[Battleseed]

Sheesh, old thread.

Playing a solo Master world ATM and it's Menacing on all for me. Rely mostly on base damage vs crit chance in games unless you can get crit chance to a very high number (nearing 100%) where it becomes reliable. Not into the occasional big crit number that pops up. Sustained DPS is what I build for mostly.

[Spike_Bop]

Warding. PERIOD.

[wcc]

Originally posted by Battleseed:

Sheesh, old thread.

Playing a solo Master world ATM and it's Menacing on all for me. Rely mostly on base damage vs crit chance in games unless you can get crit chance to a very high number (nearing 100%) where it becomes reliable. Not into the occasional big crit number that pops up. Sustained DPS is what I build for mostly.

I disagree. To bring down a boss you need many, many attacks, to the point where it is not something luck-based anymore. That said, I think the Wiki said somehow that the best strategy is to keep crit and base damage in balance for the maxium of damage. This sounds like: just keep would the tinker gives you first, because mixing stuff up is the best way to go either way.
But of course, I did not check the math behind that.

[Boksha]

The rules haven't changed. Optimal is still a mix, probably with a slight favour for criticals on accessories because there are so many other sources of +damage already. Criticals having a slightly bigger variation probably won't matter at all if you're frequently doing damage or you're fighting a boss with a lot of health.

In the end, it really doesn't matter that much. Let's assume your weapon has a base damage of 120, base crit rate of 4% and you're fighting something with 50 defense.
Let's further assume you're wearing Chlorophyte, used both Rage and Wrath Potions, are Exquisitely Stuffed, you add a Demonic modifier on your weapon and you have both a Destroyer Emblem and a specialized Emblem (and no other damage modifying accessories)
That gives you a total of +82% damage and 46% chance of a critical hit, for an expected damage of (120*1.82 - 25)*1.46 = 282

Now let's say you forge all your accessories to be Menacing, giving you +28% damage modifier for a total of +110%. You can now expect a total damage of about (120*2.1 - 25)*1.46 = 331

What if you went with Lucky instead and got an extra +28% critical hit chance? Now your expected damage is (120*1.82 - 25)*1.74 = 336

What if you maximized your expected damage? In this case you'd end up with 5 Lucky and 2 Menacing accessories, for a total damage of (120*1.90 - 25)*1.66 = 337

So in this particular case, on your damage total, the worst selection of accessory modifiers (all-Menacing) vs. optimum selection of accessory modifiers is less than 2%. Just going from all-Lucky to the optimum is less than 0.3% difference. If you're wearing better armour or add more accessories that increase both damage and critical hits, it matters even less.

Personally, if you want damage output and reforge into either Lucky or Menacing, I'd just stop reforging and stick with what you got; they're both good.

[Battleseed]

Was going by opinion and feeling, not math. Of course in the end, math wins. Go Math!

[Fumo Bnnuy n Frends]

It depends on your other accessories and armor tbh.

You can get 100% crit chance easily with items (especially melee) but you gotta ask yourself it is worth over say max mana/mana consumption? movement speed? ammo consumption? and/or raw damage?

Not to mention crit chance is completely worthless on summoner minions and sentry summons. You can get it for summoner but if you're going for dps overall then raw damage is the way to go to maximize minion damage instead of your own. Same goes for if you try using minion and sentry summons for a slight boost in damage as a non-summoner like a mage or ranger just for the hell of it. 3 extra damage sources (i.e. 2 from minion + enchantment table / minion table and 1 sentry summon) will overwrite the % crit build easily.


it also depends on the mobs and weapons you use somewhat.

items that shoot very slow or attack very slow i'd consider crit builds. If it's a faster firing item then crit is literally worth less worthless b/c of the insane firing speed. It's like you can shoot fast enough that you'll get a good sized dps from just the amount of crits that come out. A 1 in a 1000 chance doesn't matter vs a 1 in 10 if you fire the 1 in 1000 at 100 rpm while the 1 in 10 fires at 50 rpm.

[Jostabeere]

Originally posted by Smug aya:

It depends on your other accessories and armor tbh.

You can get 100% crit chance easily with items (especially melee) but you gotta ask yourself it is worth over say max mana/mana consumption? movement speed? ammo consumption? and/or raw damage?

Not to mention crit chance is completely worthless on summoner minions and sentry summons. You can get it for summoner but if you're going for dps overall then raw damage is the way to go to maximize minion damage instead of your own. Same goes for if you try using minion and sentry summons for a slight boost in damage as a non-summoner like a mage or ranger just for the hell of it. 3 extra damage sources (i.e. 2 from minion + enchantment table / minion table and 1 sentry summon) will overwrite the % crit build easily.

Eh. As a mage you either use the Shackles or the Mana stuff for basically infinite mana. Ammo for ranger is like... Also infinite tbh.
Those setups benefit from crit more than a summoner for sure.
practically a critical hit is always more DPS. 100% damage increase is much more than, let's assume we play normal, 20% or 28% on Master.
Highly theoretical getting all 5 accessories on crit % is the same as getting them on damage %.
If we assume that a weapon deals 100 damage, 10 hits would be 1200 with a damage build every time all the time.
If you get 20% crit, then worst case you lose 200 damage. Best case you win 800 damage.
Ideal case both are 1200. Since you are prone to hit more with higher crit chances, crits are theoretically better, unless you get 100% damage increase, which you cannot get simply from accessory reforges.

In theory, crit% is always better mathematically, since the lowest % of crit you could have is 24%.

[Adk]

As a maximum. Mastermode gives you +1 extra acessory slot, then the demon heart adds ANOTHER slot in expert+. so technically 7 +4% upgrades would mean the maximum is +28% boosts to one specific stat (assuming you got all your acessories to the EXACT same. (Mana does Not follow this rule. Arcane adds +20 Mana, which would max your mana (with no other mana additives to 340.)

[Sbeve]

Originally posted by Spike_Bop:

Warding. PERIOD.

Laughs in master mode killing you in 3 hits nonetheless

[Spike_Bop]

Originally posted by Sbeve:

Originally posted by Spike_Bop:

Warding. PERIOD.

Laughs in master mode killing you in 3 hits nonetheless

DONT CARE

[Sbeve]

Originally posted by Spike_Bop:

Originally posted by Sbeve:

Laughs in master mode killing you in 3 hits nonetheless

DONT CARE

your loss