Expert Mode: It isn't "Too Hard", however...

[XXChronoshiftXX]

(Please keep in mind everything to follow is simply opinion, and please feel free to disagree as much as you like! But c'mon people, try to keep it constructive and well thought out. Saying things like "STFU you suck" or the like just shows you are a moron who doesn't deserve the privellege of internet access)

Right, so I have heard a LOT of complaints about Expert Mode in Terraria being "Too Hard". This is worded in a vast spectrum of colourful ways across forums and such, to put it lightly! But the general feel is that things are just too tough.

My thoughts? The MODE itself, when considered as a whole, is absolutely fine. I have to side with the most common counter-argument to these complaints and say "It's supposed to be challenging", because let's face it, it is. It is EXPERT mode, not "Bend the enemies over and go to town" mode. It's meant to make you rage, make you cry, make you destroy your peripherals, but also make you shout with joy when you take it down! That's the whole point! (At least I assume, i'm not one of the Dev's!)

Another complaint I hear relatively frequently which I am somewhat more charitable towards is that some specific ENEMIES are too hard or "unfair". In Normal mode, this is usually countered by simply getting better armour or changing your tactics. No problems.

My problem, personally, arises when you combine the two...

Let me make this clear, I LOVE the new boss patterns and enemy variations in Expert (even if that Zombie with the big club can go f*** itself in the early game!), it really spices things up, especially for someone like me who was 700hrs+ into Terraria before I came to Expert. It was new, fresh and really brought back my initial memories and first experiences with what is a truly fantastic game.
What makes me legitimately angry, however, is cheap difficulty. For those who may not know what I mean, i'm talking about enemies which can beat you in such a way which is virtually impossible to counter, at least without items unavailable by that point of the game.

Exhibit A: Mothron

I..... HATE.... Mothron. Solar Eclipses are my favourite event in the entire game, bar none. The enemy variety, the challenge, the music, the scenery, it all just comes together in a perfect way! But this guy just spoils it all... not because he is difficult, I can deal with difficult, I personally feel he is unfair, mainly because of his attack where he can basically sit on you and deal constant damage no matter how fast you are going. To me, this isn't difficulty, this is just obnoxious. Hell, it wouldn't even be so bad if his health was dropped just a little bit, or just made slightly weaker in some aspect. But I just feel as he is, on Expert mode (I haven't encountered him on a Normal world so I can't speak for him there but I can only presume he is much more tolerable there) this enemy is just too much.

I have seen examples of other enemies players have quoted as having unfair attacks. In my opinion, any attack which is either unavoidable outright, or only surpassable with equipment following the enemy encountered is unfair. Skill of some quantity should ALWAYS trump an enemy attack.

I already know what some may say; "He is avoidable, you're just not good enough", and yes I know this attack is technically avoidable... but in my experience only if you happen to be moving quick enough or be floating about in the air somewhere when he starts it. Again, skill should be able to beat anything if you have enough of it, you shouldn't have to hope luck smiles on you.

The purpose of my post here is simply to open a discussion on the matter, because I believe that a lot of the arguments online of Expert being "Too Hard" is stemming from such issues of unfair attacks and enemy patterns. Of course, many will simply be because some players give up too easily and don't try new or better strategies, but I have faith in the Terraria community that this is only a minority! ;)

So... what do you think? Are there any enemies you feel cheated by? How are you finding Expert mode as a whole? And also what do you think on the matter of "Necessary Cheesing"; that is to say only being able to surpass some challenges by exploiting AI inadequacies or game mechanics?

Get typing, Terrarians!

[darth.crevette]

I agree with pretty much everything you said. ESPECIALLY the bit about Mothron. ;)

I've ben doing a playthrough with 4 friends in a new Expert world since 1.3 was released, all of them seasoned veterans, and we've had lots of fun. It's not called "Expert" for nothing, that's for sure, and the early game was pretty rough (either because we were still a bit rusted from not having played in a while, or because even the most basic enemies have really high stats in Expert when you're not geared yet), but so far it doesn't feel much harder than when we first started playing years ago, without really knowing much about the game.

Now I also agree that some monster seem a bit unfair, like the pre-nerf Medusa (it's much more manageable now) but once you know their patterns and play more carefully they're not really that dangerous, unless there's a bunch of other mobs around and you can't really focus.

Mothron is definitely another big issue. Its health seems fine, but it's WAY too fast, seriously no other mob can keep up with a player going full speed in a mechanical cart. Thankfully it only appears after you've beaten all 3 mechanical bosses and got that cart. Otherwise it's not much harder than Goblin Summoners.


So, in the end, Expert mode has been lots of fun so far and a welcome breath of fresh air to the game. The new boss patterns are nice, and while it can be frustrating at times (either because of enemies or new game mechanics), I still haven't thrown my keyboard through my monitor, so that's something.

[XXChronoshiftXX]

That is another fine example actually, albeit less of an issue. Perhaps Goblin Summoners are too tough (in Expert Mode) for when they are allowed to spawn, although I feel this is more an issue with their position on the "Difficulty Ladder" so to speak, as all of their attacks are perfectly fair and dodgeable under reasonable circumstances (even if they are very fast and annoying!), apparently I just wasn't good enough to survive them first time I saw them (literally the daybreak after beating the Wall of Flesh). My suggestion there would be maybe making them a "Post-One Mechanical Boss Defeat" enemy. Just a suggestion though, I don't make the game! :3

[XXChronoshiftXX]

I agree, there are definitely countermeasures which can be taken to beat it. However, here I'm talking from the perspective of someone who is potentially new to this enemy type (which every player will have been at some point following update 1.3, old or new as it is a new enemy type). They won't have made preparations for an enemy they don't know of, and speaking from experience, it started to feel very cheap after I would go back to the invasion for the 6th time, kill a couple of normal goblins only to have that thing insta-kill me yet again. If you hadn't seen that enemy before, you wouldn't be prepared for it. And while having to expect the unexpected is fun, in this case you're dealing with something which is very overpowered for when it is allowed to show up considering you could well through no fault of your own be taking it on with pre-hardmode stuff.
Just a tiny tweak like adjusting its spawn rate would make it infinitely better! Perhaps I was just unlucky, but as i mentioned before that thing would just keep on spawning almost immediately when I re-entered the area of the invasion. (And no, it wasn't the same one I died fighting in my previous attempt!)

[JellyPuff]

Yeah, Mothron's a jerk mid/early hardmode, but from how i see it, it's supposed to be one in expert mode.

It's "Oldskool difficulty", where you keep dying, until you find that one specific counter to whatever is killing you.

Like Crawlipedes from the Solar Pillar, which counter is to stay firmly on the ground.
I, personally, like that sort of stuff.

My problems with expertmode and perhaps with non-expert (*coughgolemcough*) as well, is that difficulty spikes crazy and early normalmode and early mardmode is all about racing to to top armor.

You basically need to skip right to gold/plat or go straight to the jungle or crimson/corruption with some bombs, doing trial and error and in HM, it's going straight to adamantite/titanium/frost.
Progression is a bit "abrupt".

About the random difficulty, which really is all over the place:

Early normal mode: "OH GAWD WHY".
Mid normal mode "I'm here to kick-butts and eat well-cooked-fish...and i'm all out of well-cooked-fish."
Late normal mode: "HOW? WHAT? NO WAY!!!?" (Skellingtron)
End normal mode: "Well, that was easy."
Early hardmode: "Here we go again..."
Rinse and repeat.

[Drag]

On the topic of mothron, all I really have to say is that it ought to be treated somewhat like Duke Fishron. The moment you know he's there, you shouldn't sit around.

Similar to fishron, you can't really directly run away from it. You need flight to properly avoid his charges, and ocne you know he's there, you should be spending just about all of your time airborne until it's dead.


As far as expert mdoe goes, I agree that it's just right. If you really know what you're doing and play your crads right, it's hard, but still managable. Figthing most of the new bosses was such a rush, but at the same time I found most of the expert loot from to be disappointing. Especially the demon heart not working in normal mode worlds (although at the same time, why would you need six slots in a normal world? It's not that hard.)

[Itsmez]

Expert mode, doesnt the name tell it all? it is supposed to be hard. there is normal mode for you people who cant survive on expert mode.

[Warlance]

I think if a boss is too difficult that you have to rely on cheese moding it, then the boss needs a nerf, for example the EoW in the early game, I had to super cheesemode this to have a chane, slime mount in a vertical tunnel to stop vile spit and slime mount to cause dmg to him when he tries to charge me, I felt super cheesey doing this but it was the only way I saw to beat him pre shadowscale armor. also I feel any attack that clings to you and deals a large amount on continuous damage such as mothron is a bit too much, another example is skeletron, too be honest without that attack he's fairly easy, I think he needs a buff in other areas, but have that stupid "I'm gonna sit on ur face and deal constant high damage and leave you with no health" attack for any enemy is unfair, I fail to dodge a single attack that honestly is very hard to avoid sometimes impossible under certain circumstances, and you're going to punish me by taking away ALL of my health? I mean I do Challenge runs on dark souls so I can handle difficulty, but dark souls is always fair in one way or another, these attacks aren't really. So yea basically +1 to your mothron argument, with later game gear he's super easy to avoid and kill but in early hardmode? there's just no way you don't have the mobility required to avoid that attack in any sure manner, it's basically a flip of the coin of wether you dodge it or not, and to even get that chance needs a fairly high amount of skill.

Tl;DR: Basically any enemy/boss that has an "I'm going to sit on your face and deal constant high damage to you til you have 20 health left" is unfair, buff these enemies in other ways if neccesary but take away that bull crap attack, please.

[Warlance]

Originally posted by Itsmez:

Expert mode, doesnt the name tell it all? it is supposed to be hard. there is normal mode for you people who cant survive on expert mode.

'Expert Mode' implies that yes it should be difficult, but it shouldn't be unfair, which in some specific parts, expert mode is unfair, for the most part it's just right, but there were times I felt as though there was nothing I could have done better or differently to avoid dying. So if you're going to try and make a point, Please try to do better than "Well it is EXPERT mode ya'know?" cause that's just lazy

[Tropical Hotdog Night]

Oh man. If theres one expert enemy i feel completely cheated by its skeletron. Wait, what? Normal Skeletron? Pre-Hardmode? Yes. He is completely unbalanced from the rest of the early game gear. In a normal world I will beat him after doing the eater of worlds/brain of cthulu, so I would have the crimson/corruption armor set, meteor set, or something pretty easy to get. I'd make a small arena, pull out my space gun/yoyo, and go to town. However, in Expert mode, me and my team of 3 other freinds (and we're not the worst players, mind you :P) were only able to kill him after getting molten armor and gear from the underworld. Once we had that, pretty much everything in the dungeon was completely useless (except for maybe the cobalt shield). He's already faster and does TONS of damage and always manages to get on top of me and do continuous damage (like mothron), but they had to buff the way his boss fight works too! I just feel like he is completely imbalanced from the rest of pre-hardmode. WoF is easier than Skeletron in expert it seems.

And not only that, skeletron's drop is pretty terrible too :P unless you're an avid thrower. Even then its not the best.

[water]

Things that should be fixed in my opinion:
---------------------
*Moon lord: You can't expect a ranger/mage to reliably defeat moon lord without outrunning him with tools like UFO. Taking like 160-180 dmg from those balls is ridiclious. You are either gonna be near perfect and not go tank melee, either go tank melee or just hold m1 with chrolo bullets while moving zigzag with ufo. (NERF NERF NERF)
---------------------
*Face Sitting: Removal of stupid you made one mistake you loose 350 hp things (skeletron's head spin).
---------------------
*Buff EOC: So we can't get best second expert loot with just 200 hp and and a rifle.
---------------------
Also I don't think people plays expert mode to rage, more like for a challange :3

Well said.

[ham]

Originally posted by Robot-Friend:

Things that should be fixed in my opinion:
---------------------
*Moon lord: You can't expect a ranger/mage to reliably defeat moon lord without outrunning him with tools like UFO. Taking like 160-180 dmg from those balls is ridiclious. You are either gonna be near perfect and not go tank melee, either go tank melee or just hold m1 with chrolo bullets while moving zigzag with ufo. (NERF NERF NERF)
---------------------
*Face Sitting: Removal of stupid you made one mistake you loose 350 hp things (skeletron's head spin).
---------------------
*Buff EOC: So we can't get best second expert loot with just 200 hp and and a rifle.
---------------------
Also I don't think people plays expert mode to rage, more like for a challange :3

Well said.

rod of discord

[ham]

Originally posted by Frog:

Oh man. If theres one expert enemy i feel completely cheated by its skeletron. Wait, what? Normal Skeletron? Pre-Hardmode? Yes. He is completely unbalanced from the rest of the early game gear. In a normal world I will beat him after doing the eater of worlds/brain of cthulu, so I would have the crimson/corruption armor set, meteor set, or something pretty easy to get. I'd make a small arena, pull out my space gun/yoyo, and go to town. However, in Expert mode, me and my team of 3 other freinds (and we're not the worst players, mind you :P) were only able to kill him after getting molten armor and gear from the underworld. Once we had that, pretty much everything in the dungeon was completely useless (except for maybe the cobalt shield). He's already faster and does TONS of damage and always manages to get on top of me and do continuous damage (like mothron), but they had to buff the way his boss fight works too! I just feel like he is completely imbalanced from the rest of pre-hardmode. WoF is easier than Skeletron in expert it seems.

And not only that, skeletron's drop is pretty terrible too :P unless you're an avid thrower. Even then its not the best.

its all about mobility, if you can dodge and run sanic fast your good to go

[PKblaze]

Expert mode is fine, I've played through from start to finish. Sure some enemies are tough but my main thingI'm idsappointed about is that the hardmode bosses didn't receive any real changes.

[Attila the Hun]

I agree with Pkblaze. After the super-hard but super-rewarding skeletron fight on expert mode, every other boss feels like cake in hardmode. As it stands, skeletron is the hardest boss in the game with the pre hardmode loot one has at that time when one doesn't cheese. As for Mothron, I suppose his speed could be reduced by 1 percent. I really hope they make some changes to plantera and goldem in expert mode in a future patch because they were so easy to kill on my first try ever with the loot one has at that time. Great game!

[water]

Originally posted by Rummy:

Originally posted by Robot-Friend:

Things that should be fixed in my opinion:
---------------------
*Moon lord: You can't expect a ranger/mage to reliably defeat moon lord without outrunning him with tools like UFO. Taking like 160-180 dmg from those balls is ridiclious. You are either gonna be near perfect and not go tank melee, either go tank melee or just hold m1 with chrolo bullets while moving zigzag with ufo. (NERF NERF NERF)
---------------------
*Face Sitting: Removal of stupid you made one mistake you loose 350 hp things (skeletron's head spin).
---------------------
*Buff EOC: So we can't get best second expert loot with just 200 hp and and a rifle.
---------------------
Also I don't think people plays expert mode to rage, more like for a challange :3

Well said.

rod of discord

Uhm what? I'm not asking for help, I'm making suggestions... BTW using rod of discord just to dodge circles is not a good idea.