Minishark V Musket

[BitterLight]

As i see it, musket outshines minishark in every way, better dps, MUCH easier to get, more accurate, and saves on bullets, plus you can get it earlier i the game, the only reason i would ever buy minishark is if 1. the world is crimson 2. to make megashark or 3. if it is a multiplayer world and all of the orbs are gone and all the muskets got sold or others have them (Very rarely happens). or 4. if you have a load of money to spare and you just buy it for bosses (though musket still does a better job at taking them out if your aim is decent)
My question? Is there anything i am overlooking? Is there something that i am missing that makes minishark better?

[Arpente Reves]

All of your reasons are good. I used the Musket until Hardmode for it's ammo save. Now, I have too many bullets (with the endless one) so I can fire everywhere (and the chain gun is much better :3)

[Nine]

In a fight against eachother with Basic accessories and Iron armor, With musket Balls

The Musket wins, The DMG will just destroy the one with the Minishark, But it'll be a hard fight c:

[Ruinae Retroque Rursus]

3. if it is a multiplayer world and all of the orbs are gone and all the muskets got sold or others have them (Very rarely happens)

It's still possible to fish up Corrupt Crates and open those for a... 25% (?) chance of getting a Musket.

According to the wiki[terraria.gamepedia.com]:

MATHS AHEAD

Musket Use Time - 35
Musket Damage = 25 + 7 = 32 (weapon + musket balls)

Minishark Use Time - 8
Minishark Damage = 6 + 7 = 13

Damage

Thus, in the time the musket has reloaded the Minishark has fired (35 / 8 = 4-and-a-bit) shots. So you get 13 x 4 = 52 damage per musket shot; much higher!
The reason this is so is because you don't account for the Musket Balls when doing most of your calculations, which doubles the damage and a little more (6 -> 13).

However, this ALSO assumes the enemy has no defense.

Let's say that the enemy defense = 8 (Demons, Skeletons, and I can't bother finding anything else with that defense). Thus, this equates to a 4-dmg reduction (if on Normal) and also a 4-dmg reduction on Expert (as according to the wiki, enemies don't follow the 3/4 rule of Expert player defense).

This means your Musket now does 28 dmg and your Minishark deals 9 dmg. In which case the Minishark is still a slightly better weapon (it's four-and-a-bit shots)



What is the defense at which the Musket is better than the Minishark, you may ask?


Well, let's say U = m-u-sket damage dealt to enemy = 32 - D
D = damage reduction
N = Mi-n-ishark damage dealt to enemy = 13 - D
The Minishark fires four shots to the Musket's one (we'll use the exact value, 35/8), so we want the value of D for which 35/8 * N = U

That is, 35/8 * (13 - D) = 32 - D

Multiplying out;

35*13/8 = 32 - D + 35 D /8
35*13/8 - 32 = 27 D / 8

D = ((35 * 13 / 8) - (32)) * 8 / 27
D = 7.370370370....
so that the defense of an enemy must be equal to 2D = basically 15..... and basically nothing equals that in Pre-Hardmode except for a couple of bosses (and even then, Skelly's hand def is only 14)

Ammo Consumption

The musket uses one bullet no matter what, but if the Minishark fires four bullets with a 33% chance of not consuming ammo, then you still have a 16/27 ~~ 1/2 chance (ish) of using all four bullets. The chances of just using one bullet is really low; 4/27 ~~ 1/8 . The chance of using no bullets is 1/27 ~~ 3% (ish).
So, the Minishark has a range of chances for a range of ammo consumption over four shots, but basically you can expect the average (via the Law of Large Numbers) to be 3 bullets)....

Originally posted by Arpente Reves:

(and the chain gun is much better :3)

The SDMG is basically the speed of the Chain Gun plus the damage of the Sniper Rifle (well, it's not quite that bad); it's not to be underestimated and it is the best of both world. High-damage shots at an insanely fast rate.

EDIT:

Originally posted by Nine 🆅🅰🅻🆅🅴 Sick :c:

In a fight against eachother with Basic accessories and Iron armor, With musket Balls

The Musket wins, The DMG will just destroy the one with the Minishark, But it'll be a hard fight c:

With Musket Balls (7 dmg, which is actually pretty high) the Minishark deals 13 damage. Damage reduction of Iron Armor is 9 def = 4 (maybe?) points of damage taken down = 9 dmg per hit. Remember that from above, it fires four for the Musket's one.

The Musket deals 25 +7 = 32 dmg. Damage reduction of Iron Armor reduces that to 28 dmg per hit. The Minishark deals 4 bullets for the Musket's one = 4x9 = 36 dmg

So the Minishark is actually better than the Musket..... if, as you say later, the person can actually aim. But surely that applies for the musket as well?

In fact, when it comes to aiming the Minishark is better off. Missing a Musket shot vastly reduces your DPS but missing a Minishark shot only reduces it by a little. Over time, you'd expect (via the law of Large Numbers) accuracy to not come into it as both will miss a similar amount of shots.

[Nine]

Originally posted by aidenpons:

3. if it is a multiplayer world and all of the orbs are gone and all the muskets got sold or others have them (Very rarely happens)

It's still possible to fish up Corrupt Crates and open those for a... 25% (?) chance of getting a Musket.

EDIT: I NEED TO REDO MY MATHSSSSSS

According to the wiki[terraria.gamepedia.com], the Minishark deals ever-more-slightly DPS (two more per second). However, against enemies with basically any defense it'll deal MUCH lower DPS... and that includes bosses.

The musket also uses less ammo:

MATHS AHEAD

Musket Use Time - 35
Minishark Use Time - 8

Thus, in the time the musket has reloaded the Minishark has fired (35 / 8 = 4-and-a-bit) shots. The musket uses one bullet no matter what, but if the Minishark fires four bullets with a 33% chance of not consuming ammo, then you still have a 16/27 ~~ 1/2 chance (ish) of using all four bullets. The chances of just using one bullet is a really low; 4/27 ~~ 1/8 . The chance of using no bullets is 1/27 ~~ 3% (ish).
So, the Minishark has a range of chances for a range of ammo consumption over four shots, but basically you can expect the average (via the Law of Large Numbers) to be 3 bullets)....

.... and the Musket has only used one for a teeeny lower DPS (your accuracy will change your DPS much more than this will)

Originally posted by Arpente Reves:

(and the chain gun is much better :3)

The SDMG is basically the speed of the Chain Gun plus the damage of the Sniper Rifle (well, it's not quite that bad); it's not to be underestimated and it is the best of both world. High-damage shots at an insanely fast rate.

EDIT:

Originally posted by Nine 🆅🅰🅻🆅🅴 Sick :c:

In a fight against eachother with Basic accessories and Iron armor, With musket Balls

The Musket wins, The DMG will just destroy the one with the Minishark, But it'll be a hard fight c:

With Musket Balls (7 dmg, which is actually pretty high) the Minishark deals 13 damage. Damage reduction of Iron Armor is 9 def = 4 (maybe?) points of damage taken down = 9 dmg per hit. Remember that from above, it fires four for the Musket's one.

The Musket deals 25 +7 = 32 dmg. Damage reduction of Iron Armor reduces that to 28 dmg per hit. The Minishark deals 4 bullets for the Musket's one = 4x9 = 36 dmg

So the Minishark is actually better than the Musket.

"So the Minishark is actually better than the Musket"

If the person using it can ACTUALLY aim with it.

[BitterLight]

glad to see im not alone on this, but tbh once you break the orb to get the musket not soon after (if not immediately) a meteor will fall down, using bombs or just an obsidian skull, you can get enough ore for a full set of meteor armor and space gun, and anybody with half a brain can tell how OP the space gun is if the mana cost is 0, i use this weapon to kill the WoF every time, unless i am doing warrior or summoner in a class playthrough, plus since the weapon is magic AND a gun, ranged and mage both can use it (unless the rules are extremely strict, i deem this weapon an exception.)

[BitterLight]

Originally posted by aidenpons:

3. if it is a multiplayer world and all of the orbs are gone and all the muskets got sold or others have them (Very rarely happens)

It's still possible to fish up Corrupt Crates and open those for a... 25% (?) chance of getting a Musket.

EDIT: I NEED TO REDO MY MATHSSSSSS

According to the wiki[terraria.gamepedia.com], the Minishark deals ever-more-slightly DPS (two more per second). However, against enemies with basically any defense it'll deal MUCH lower DPS... and that includes bosses.

The musket also uses less ammo:

MATHS AHEAD

Musket Use Time - 35
Minishark Use Time - 8

Thus, in the time the musket has reloaded the Minishark has fired (35 / 8 = 4-and-a-bit) shots. The musket uses one bullet no matter what, but if the Minishark fires four bullets with a 33% chance of not consuming ammo, then you still have a 16/27 ~~ 1/2 chance (ish) of using all four bullets. The chances of just using one bullet is a really low; 4/27 ~~ 1/8 . The chance of using no bullets is 1/27 ~~ 3% (ish).
So, the Minishark has a range of chances for a range of ammo consumption over four shots, but basically you can expect the average (via the Law of Large Numbers) to be 3 bullets)....

.... and the Musket has only used one for a teeeny lower DPS (your accuracy will change your DPS much more than this will)

Originally posted by Arpente Reves:

(and the chain gun is much better :3)

The SDMG is basically the speed of the Chain Gun plus the damage of the Sniper Rifle (well, it's not quite that bad); it's not to be underestimated and it is the best of both world. High-damage shots at an insanely fast rate.

EDIT:

Originally posted by Nine 🆅🅰🅻🆅🅴 Sick :c:

In a fight against eachother with Basic accessories and Iron armor, With musket Balls

The Musket wins, The DMG will just destroy the one with the Minishark, But it'll be a hard fight c:

With Musket Balls (7 dmg, which is actually pretty high) the Minishark deals 13 damage. Damage reduction of Iron Armor is 9 def = 4 (maybe?) points of damage taken down = 9 dmg per hit. Remember that from above, it fires four for the Musket's one.

The Musket deals 25 +7 = 32 dmg. Damage reduction of Iron Armor reduces that to 28 dmg per hit. The Minishark deals 4 bullets for the Musket's one = 4x9 = 36 dmg

So the Minishark is actually better than the Musket.

not really, any armor the enemy has is multiplied by 4 when using the minishark, because it fires 4 bullets for each musket shot, which produces an extreme DPS reduction.

[Plazy]

I still prefer using the Minishark. I love firing a ridiculous amount of bullets with barely any care.

[Ruinae Retroque Rursus]

Maths is done and you can ogle it for your pleasure.

not really, any armor the enemy has is multiplied by 4 when using the minishark, because it fires 4 bullets for each musket shot, which produces an extreme DPS reduction.

..... yes, that's what I already factored in, and you're using a different method (you'd need to use [sum damage] - [sum defense], NOT [dmg_of_one_shot] - [sum defense] )

Originally posted by Peter Pumpkin Eater:

glad to see im not alone on this, but tbh once you break the orb to get the musket not soon after (if not immediately) a meteor will fall down, using bombs or just an obsidian skull, you can get enough ore for a full set of meteor armor and space gun, and anybody with half a brain can tell how OP the space gun is if the mana cost is 0, i use this weapon to kill the WoF every time, unless i am doing warrior or summoner in a class playthrough, plus since the weapon is magic AND a gun, ranged and mage both can use it (unless the rules are extremely strict, i deem this weapon an exception.)

Dunno what you're on about. Space Gun is a strictly Magic weapon. It doesn't benefit from Ranged damage...

.... also the Space Gun can't kill Mr. WoFFle on Expert, but it's still pretty good against EoC

---------------------------------

The final upshot of the maths is that the Minishark is better for damage, but not for ammo use, until your enemies start hitting 14 def (a.k.a Hardmode).

[BitterLight]

Originally posted by aidenpons:

Maths is done and you can ogle it for your pleasure.

not really, any armor the enemy has is multiplied by 4 when using the minishark, because it fires 4 bullets for each musket shot, which produces an extreme DPS reduction.

..... yes, that's what I already factored in, and you're using a different method (you'd need to use [sum damage] - [sum defense], NOT [dmg_of_one_shot] - [sum defense] )

Originally posted by Peter Pumpkin Eater:

glad to see im not alone on this, but tbh once you break the orb to get the musket not soon after (if not immediately) a meteor will fall down, using bombs or just an obsidian skull, you can get enough ore for a full set of meteor armor and space gun, and anybody with half a brain can tell how OP the space gun is if the mana cost is 0, i use this weapon to kill the WoF every time, unless i am doing warrior or summoner in a class playthrough, plus since the weapon is magic AND a gun, ranged and mage both can use it (unless the rules are extremely strict, i deem this weapon an exception.)

Dunno what you're on about. Space Gun is a strictly Magic weapon. It doesn't benefit from Ranged damage...

.... also the Space Gun can't kill Mr. WoFFle on Expert, but it's still pretty good against EoC

---------------------------------

The final upshot of the maths is that the Minishark is better for damage, but not for ammo use, until your enemies start hitting 14 def (a.k.a Hardmode).

True, but the musket is still much easier to get, i can see why people would get minishark, on first sight the minishark seems better.
Also what i meant was that since the space gun is a gun, i consider it part of the ranged class, although it doesnt get and of the ranged damage buffs, its still a pretty good weapon

What do you mean it isnt good for WoF? the piercing is great for getting through the hungries, the bullets fly fast so it isnt hard to be accurate, plus you can just hold down the fire button and it just obliterates the WoF, i just used it on my new playthrough (expert) and it worked really well.

[Baron von Dapper]

Originally posted by Peter Pumpkin Eater:

Originally posted by aidenpons:

Maths is done and you can ogle it for your pleasure.


..... yes, that's what I already factored in, and you're using a different method (you'd need to use [sum damage] - [sum defense], NOT [dmg_of_one_shot] - [sum defense] )



Dunno what you're on about. Space Gun is a strictly Magic weapon. It doesn't benefit from Ranged damage...

.... also the Space Gun can't kill Mr. WoFFle on Expert, but it's still pretty good against EoC

---------------------------------

The final upshot of the maths is that the Minishark is better for damage, but not for ammo use, until your enemies start hitting 14 def (a.k.a Hardmode).

True, but the musket is still much easier to get, i can see why people would get minishark, on first sight the minishark seems better.
Also what i meant was that since the space gun is a gun, i consider it part of the ranged class, although it doesnt get and of the ranged damage buffs, its still a pretty good weapon

What do you mean it isnt good for WoF? the piercing is great for getting through the hungries, the bullets fly fast so it isnt hard to be accurate, plus you can just hold down the fire button and it just obliterates the WoF, i just used it on my new playthrough (expert) and it worked really well.

I actually enjoy the phoenix blaster more than both of them, you have to manually fire it but if you click fast enough it can go slightly faster than the minishark I believe, while still doing quite a bit of damage and being accurate.

[fushigi friend]

But it's muc heasier to hit with a minishark

[Fumo Bnnuy n Frends]

are we all talking about the same musket, the one you get from shadow orbs?

[Drag]

Originally posted by Peter Pumpkin Eater:

...
Also what i meant was that since the space gun is a gun, i consider it part of the ranged class, although it doesnt get and of the ranged damage buffs, its still a pretty good weapon

...

Last I checked, the space "gun" is more of a ray gun, which is to say, a highly focused, high power flashlight, or "laser." It is by the same line of thinking that I don't consider the laser machinegun an actual gun either.

Also, I'm glad that aidenpons did the math and explained it already. Means that I don't have to.


Back on topic, it also hasn't been mentioned that the minishark's high rate of fire also enables it more consistent knockback to mobs. It might not have knockback itself, but the ammo does. The higher rate of fire also inherently makes the weapon require less skill to use to its full potential. Missing shots with a minishark will degrade damage output, but the musket will suffer even more from poor aim.

[BitterLight]

Originally posted by Drag:

Originally posted by Peter Pumpkin Eater:

...
Also what i meant was that since the space gun is a gun, i consider it part of the ranged class, although it doesnt get and of the ranged damage buffs, its still a pretty good weapon

...

Last I checked, the space "gun" is more of a ray gun, which is to say, a highly focused, high power flashlight, or "laser." It is by the same line of thinking that I don't consider the laser machinegun an actual gun either.

Also, I'm glad that aidenpons did the math and explained it already. Means that I don't have to.


Back on topic, it also hasn't been mentioned that the minishark's high rate of fire also enables it more consistent knockback to mobs. It might not have knockback itself, but the ammo does. The higher rate of fire also inherently makes the weapon require less skill to use to its full potential. Missing shots with a minishark will degrade damage output, but the musket will suffer even more from poor aim.

So basically it all boils down to if you are good at aiming.

[Drag]

Originally posted by Peter Pumpkin Eater:

So basically it all boils down to if you are good at aiming.

No. aidenpons did the math accounting for a pre-hardmode enemy's defense and the ammo's damage itself. If you can achieve the same hti accuracy with both guns, the minishark will still perform better than the musket damagewise.

Mathematically speaking, assuming a fixed non-100% hit accuracy multiples the same to both damage outputs.

Of course, the musket has a higher firing accuracy than the minishark (since the musket has no spread) but the stream of shots from the minishark gives the user a steady, visual indication of where the shots are going. This makes it very easy to correct your aim for lead time.



But regardless it doesn't matter. If you prefer the musket, then use it and demote the minishark to solely a role of crafting material for the megashark.