5 minute timer between turns?!

[LarryP]

Is this true? I saw this in a review and for someone that has never played the game, this seems totally wrong. A deal breaker for me if true.

[seaotters]

I haven't had anyone take more than about 3 minutes max for a turn, with the majority being more like 30-90s, which isn't too bad.

I tend to take my turns quickly because I spend the time other players are taking to plan my next move so I am mostly ready once the timer begins.

Edit: Have started seeing players who take 5 minutes just to lay eggs, and people letting the timer run down on the last turn of the game. Not sure if this is down to connection issues or people being obnoxious, but I wouldn't have thought a game like this would attract the sort of people who want to be rude to their opponents by wasting their time.

5 minutes really is too long. Would like to choose the turn time, maybe a server browser and an option for whatever custom rules people want to play with.

[RaNus]

I agree with most comments, 5 minutes is way too long. Especially in the first round, I see many people taking 4-5 minutes to make a decision, and don't understand how this is possible. I like the idea of a set time bank for each round. Players who take 4 minutes 59 seconds for one turn should not get another 5 minutes the next turn. Fun game, though, love the calm vibes and the music.

Edit: as an example, I just played a game where player 2 and I took ~1 minute per turn. Player 3 took ~3-4 minutes every turn. There are 26 turns total. So overall I took ~30 minutes, player 2 took ~30 minutes, and player 3 took ~1.5-2 hours. At one point player 3 took 4 minutes 59 seconds just to gain food. I can see why people are not a fan of the current time limit. Possible solutions:

1. Lower turn time limit to 2 minutes max, have it refresh every turn.
2. Have time limit apply to the round or the entire game (e.g., every player gets 30 minutes for the entire game).
3. Keep time limit as is but add option to vote to abandon the match with no penalty.

[Spectral B4dger]

I did a game last night and I'm a bit confused about how the timer works. Sometimes I saw it resetting to 5 minutes when it was another player's turn, sometimes I saw the timer kept running and leaving less time for that player to act.
At some point in round 4 I got a message stating that a player took too long to make their move and then I was sent to a game against AI
Is it then 5min per turn or 5min pet player?
In any case, very messy.

[yoship]

So I've played quite a few online games of Wingspan, and my observation in almost all cases the games end under 2 hours- majority of games take 1.5 to 2 hours. In some exceptions, the games stretched slightly above 2 hour mark.

That's 26 times 3 = 78 moves in 120 minutes.
That's 1 minute, 32 seconds per turn average.
Typically 90% games clock under this in my expericence.
So this 5 minute timer is not really a concern when actually playing- just reserve 2 hours for each game, and everyone's golden.

[RaNus]

Ursprungligen skrivet av yoship:

That's 1 minute, 32 seconds per turn average.

But you calculated the average based on total play time, not per player play time. I think people are complaining about limiting per player play time. Let's say you're correct, and each player takes, on average, 1 min 30 sec to move. Multiplied by 3, that's 4 minutes 30 sec per turn. What's frustrating is when two players move at 30 seconds each and the third player takes the remaining 3 minutes 30 sec. Sure, it's a 2 hour game, but most of the time was spent waiting for someone else to move.

By the way, if people need 5 minutes, that's fine, but devs should make an option for 1-2 minutes per move for people who want to move faster.

[yoship]

Ursprungligen skrivet av RaNus:

Ursprungligen skrivet av yoship:

That's 1 minute, 32 seconds per turn average.

But you calculated the average based on total play time, not per player play time. I think people are complaining about limiting per player play time. Let's say you're correct, and each player takes, on average, 1 min 30 sec to move. Multiplied by 3, that's 4 minutes 30 sec per turn. What's frustrating is when two players move at 30 seconds each and the third player takes the remaining 3 minutes 30 sec. Sure, it's a 2 hour game, but most of the time was spent waiting for someone else to move.

By the way, if people need 5 minutes, that's fine, but devs should make an option for 1-2 minutes per move for people who want to move faster.

Your analysis is correct- this is exactly how the game plays out time-wise. In fact, for a fast player averaging say 30 sec per turn, the average wait time would be 4:30- 0:30 = 4:00 mins.

For a slow player averaging, say 2:30 mins, the average wait = 2:00 mins, half that of the fast player- and it really is the wait that can get annoying! So yes, the fast player does suffer particularly because of a slow player, but the same problem is present in real-life board games too.

And yet, there's also the lower bound we have to consider- that most (~ 90%) 3-player online Wingspan games seem to be taking at least 1:30 hrs. Now, I'm not such a fast player- for a fast player this minimum online game length may be closer to 1:15 hrs or 75 mins. If this fast player takes 15 mins for all his moves, this means the other 2 players are taking at least 30 mins each for their moves in 90% of the cases (these are representative percentages, don't quote me on this lol)

So what can Devs do to improve the experience for online play, is the real question. A chess-like clock system is out of the question, as time management in chess can get difficult for even the best of them. So a per-turn timer is the right idea for Wingspan. In my observation, the longest moves in this game are when deciding tactics for next 3 to 5 moves- one long move is likely followed by 3 to 4 quicker moves. The end-of-round moves can also be longish. So the turn-timer has to be based on the longest time it may take to reasonably make difficult choices in Wingspan- for an experienced player this maximum time needed for a complex move could be say 1 min, or 2 min. For the inexperienced newcomer or occasional player it could be 3, 4, or 5 mins. The Devs have to accomodate all, and the game is to be a relaxing experience additionally. There's an additional factor to consider- if a player makes what they deem to be a mistake under time pressure under a small timer, they may not be as motivated to continue the game and that can lead to a new problem.

Personally, I think the Devs can try reducing the per-move timer from 5 mins to 4 mins and see if this improves the experience for everyone. I don't think this will reduce the total game time drastically, maybe by about 10 to 15 mins, but it will still be an improvement. If it is received well by all players including newbies, maybe then Devs could try 3:30 min timer next.

[easytarget]

Given this has been an active thread going on 6 months the devs might want to jump in and comment on whether they intend to make this configurable.

And if for some inexplicable reason they're not, explain why.

[Spectral B4dger]

A bit jarring they haven't drop a single line on this as well as on other issues that are currently affecting the multiplayer experience.
Such a bitter aftertaste when devs don't communicate with the playerbase...

[yoship]

So I played two online games after the last comment keeping a track of time. My rep/ karma is 80+ so I'm assuming the other players would also have similar experience and hours with the game. Both games were very different.

The first was a quick, low scoring game lasting 1 hr, 10 min. My time was slightly over 30 mins, meaning the other two similarly quick players took around 20 minutes for their moves.

The second was a longer affair, clocking 1 hr, 45 min. My time was 45 mins, and I'd estimate the other two players took around 35 and 25 mins respectively- one was quicker than the other.

In the two games, I was the slower player but also won both, and the second by a wide margin- so make of the somewhat longer times what you will. The big question here is, would changing the timer from 5-min to 4-min or 3-min dramatically reduce wait times? I don't think so, since most of the moves seem to be played under the 3-min mark anyway. On the whole, I think the 5-min timer is largely fair, unless someone seeks to actively misuse it.

This game has been a surprise find for me- the core mechanics are so well thought out and balanced, and the gameplay is dynamic and encourages lateral thinking. I'd like to thank the board game creater and also the Devs and game artists who have done a splendid job on the digital version making it accessible to a larger audience.

[Spectral B4dger]

Lucky you man!! So far I tried 4 plays online and the other players dropped before the end of Round 1!!
So frustrating! In the end I just tend to play with AI cause at least I can finish a game!

[yoship]

Ursprungligen skrivet av Spectral B4dger:

Lucky you man!! So far I tried 4 plays online and the other players dropped before the end of Round 1!!
So frustrating! In the end I just tend to play with AI cause at least I can finish a game! :trolol:

Sorry that happened to you- yes it happens sometimes, but things improve at karma 60 and above. Also, a player dropping out still allows continuing the game to completion with AI taking over the other two players- in a sense it is best of both worlds, so do not hesitate to give this nifty feature a shot.

[easytarget]

FYI, might check the latest patch notes, would appear they've made the time configurable.

[Spectral B4dger]

Ursprungligen skrivet av easytarget:

FYI, might check the latest patch notes, would appear they've made the time configurable.

Eh, no. No option to setup the timer in both Matchmaking and Custom games.

[easytarget]

Ah, shame, must have misread the thread about the patch, mistaking what was done with what is still being asked for. ;)

[Dazrix]

I just think it'd be nice if they had a rating or leaderboard where games are 3 minute turns only,,, 5 is to much, But I agree that around karma 100, people don't use more than about 90 seconds... Every now and then you get some muppet clocking down the timer, either because he's playing multiple games or alot of actions in one move (which I can forgive if that action offers alot of choices) and the worst one that I want to eliminate is the person running down the time deliberately because they aren't doing so well.

It's rare but happens. I win a large majority of my matches. Lately I think players are getting more clued in.. I have stopped winning by 40-60 points and now they can get pretty close. Sometimes I get the blowout, but I'm enjoying these matches where I'm only winning by 10 or so points or having all 3 players within 4 points of highest to lowest. I think it's exciting. I must admit, I feel I lost some capacity to play the base game after playing alot of the Oceanic set, as the Oceanic expansion is an immensely different game (new board too)