Secrets

[1mbalanced]

should be more noticeable. There are another crackers on the walls and you can easily mix up them with the ones which leads in secret rooms. Also, the light on some levels interferes identifying the cracks untill point blank range.

[ItBurn]

They're secrets though, they're supposed to be hard to find :P At least, in this game, they're identified with a crack and a sound. In older FPSes you had to activate every single wall to find one :P

[1mbalanced]

Sound? Oh, didnt hear any to be honest... In Doom you can see most of the secrets clearly - the wall has different color etc. Here in NR the wall just has more cracks. Not noticeable. Yes, i should activate the others i can see clearly but they are open immediately, but not after 3 kicks.

[[Lizard Wizard]]

Originally posted by itburnb:

They're secrets though, they're supposed to be hard to find :P At least, in this game, they're identified with a crack and a sound. In older FPSes you had to activate every single wall to find one :P

To be fair the secrets aren't quite like those found in the old FPS. Randomly generated secret rooms is more of a rogue lite thing than an old school FPS thing, especially when they are done with the ol' crack in da wall. Compare this to secrets in games like Doom II, Shadow Warrior, or Blood where secrets are placed with intention and rewarding to find. Not so much in Nightmare Reaper.

The crack in the wall is very hard to see on almost any stone texture, I only ever find them due to the sound coming from them. At the moment honestly the secrets seem to only artificially draw out play time as I comb back through the level hugging the wall to find that last secret room because I'm not necessarily listening for the faint howl of wind while zombies are screaming at me and everything is exploding.

Also some secret rooms have nothing in them, what is up with that?

[ItBurn]

Originally posted by Mymic:

Originally posted by itburnb:

They're secrets though, they're supposed to be hard to find :P At least, in this game, they're identified with a crack and a sound. In older FPSes you had to activate every single wall to find one :P

To be fair the secrets aren't quite like those found in the old FPS. Randomly generated secret rooms is more of a rogue lite thing than an old school FPS thing, especially when they are done with the ol' crack in da wall. Compare this to secrets in games like Doom II, Shadow Warrior, or Blood where secrets are placed with intention and rewarding to find. Not so much in Nightmare Reaper.

The crack in the wall is very hard to see on almost any stone texture, I only ever find them due to the sound coming from them. At the moment honestly the secrets seem to only artificially draw out play time as I comb back through the level hugging the wall to find that last secret room because I'm not necessarily listening for the faint howl of wind while zombies are screaming at me and everything is exploding.

Also some secret rooms have nothing in them, what is up with that?

Some treasure rooms have wooden treasure chests which only count towards the level total once opened. So, all treasure rooms have something in them.

Secrets are completely optional to find. From all the streams I've watched, people who want to find them find them at an appropriate rate in my opinion. Being a completionist is a play style. It takes longer, but you end up with more rewards. If you don't want to search for secrets, then you have a different play style that is just as valid. That's how I see it anyway.

[[Lizard Wizard]]

Originally posted by itburnb:

Originally posted by Mymic:

To be fair the secrets aren't quite like those found in the old FPS. Randomly generated secret rooms is more of a rogue lite thing than an old school FPS thing, especially when they are done with the ol' crack in da wall. Compare this to secrets in games like Doom II, Shadow Warrior, or Blood where secrets are placed with intention and rewarding to find. Not so much in Nightmare Reaper.

The crack in the wall is very hard to see on almost any stone texture, I only ever find them due to the sound coming from them. At the moment honestly the secrets seem to only artificially draw out play time as I comb back through the level hugging the wall to find that last secret room because I'm not necessarily listening for the faint howl of wind while zombies are screaming at me and everything is exploding.

Also some secret rooms have nothing in them, what is up with that?

Some treasure rooms have wooden treasure chests which only count towards the level total once opened. So, all treasure rooms have something in them.

Secrets are completely optional to find. From all the streams I've watched, people who want to find them find them at an appropriate rate in my opinion. Being a completionist is a play style. It takes longer, but you end up with more rewards. If you don't want to search for secrets, then you have a different play style that is just as valid. That's how I see it anyway.

My point was that the way your secrets are currently set up is that they are not fun nor rewarding to find.

Combined with how difficult they are to spot afterwards and the considerable back tracking you need to to get 100% in their current state secrets aren't fun at all. It's the least favorite part of the game.

Just because a part of your game is optional doesn't mean the feature itself is fun or enhancing the game in anyway.

Your game is fast paced, hunting for secrets in the level drags down that pace for players who want to unlock all the upgrades. From a game play perspective it's a slow down and a nuisance as opposed to fun and rewarding.

What made secrets fun in other old school FPS was they were intentionally placed and fit into the level in a way that made them actually rewarding to find.

Your secrets are basically check marks on a treasure list, an optional check list that takes way more time than it really should.

My recommendation would be either removing secrets all together as none of your current secret rooms serve much purpose besides artificially drawing out the gameplay or for displaying easter eggs OR re-vamping secrets in a way that makes them more rewarding to find than simply ensuring you get those last few pieces of treasure.

I think secrets could also be more rewarding if their actual reward was something more tangible than a completion bonus, like having a higher chance to find a legendary weapon in a chest in the secret rooms or something akin to that.

[ItBurn]

I think that as it is right now, finding secrets is fun and rewarding. I also don't think that they're hard to find, especially with the noise they make. If you spend just a little bit of time glancing at the walls in a room after a fight you should rarely miss some. I realize that you're the type of player who wants to run and gun very fast and also do 100% completion, but I think that that's having your cake and eating it too. Nightmare Reaper was designed as an old school FPS that doesn't hold your hand, explains almost nothing and demands that you pay attention to it.

With that said, I might be wrong, maybe the secrets are a detriment to the game, but I didn't see evidence of that and I'm not yet convinced.

Treasure rooms are also more than just a completion bonus, they contain a significant amount of treasure. I agree that having more varied rewards in them could be fun. I also want to add secrets to EP2 that aren't cracks in the walls, but you'll definitely also have to do work in order to find them. My suggestion to you is to play the way you want to. If you don't enjoy backtracking for secrets you missed, just go to the exit. None of the skills are required and you'll unlock all of them eventually, even if it needs new game+.

[[Lizard Wizard]]

Originally posted by itburnb:

I think that as it is right now, finding secrets is fun and rewarding. I also don't think that they're hard to find, especially with the noise they make. If you spend just a little bit of time glancing at the walls in a room after a fight you should rarely miss some. I realize that you're the type of player who wants to run and gun very fast and also do 100% completion, but I think that that's having your cake and eating it too. Nightmare Reaper was designed as an old school FPS that doesn't hold your hand, explains almost nothing and demands that you pay attention to it.

With that said, I might be wrong, maybe the secrets are a detriment to the game, but I didn't see evidence of that and I'm not yet convinced.

Treasure rooms are also more than just a completion bonus, they contain a significant amount of treasure. I agree that having more varied rewards in them could be fun. I also want to add secrets to EP2 that aren't cracks in the walls, but you'll definitely also have to do work in order to find them. My suggestion to you is to play the way you want to. If you don't enjoy backtracking for secrets you missed, just go to the exit. None of the skills are required and you'll unlock all of them eventually, even if it needs new game+.

Just because you think they are fun doesn't mean they are.

"Nightmare Reaper was designed as an old school FPS that doesn't hold your hand, explains almost nothing and demands that you pay attention to it."

Get over yourself your game is piss easy and relies on finding a single good weapon and maining it til the end of the game. You can fly through the game w/o upgrades currently and there is nothing "designed" about it, that is what you're missing here.

Doom, Blood, Quake...all of these games have secrets. But very few of those secrets are just hidden walls with wooshing wind noises. They are placed into the level to encourage the player to explore and learn effective routes. Once this is accomplished the player is free to test their speed and knowledge of the game because the secrets are placed.

Your game is randomly generated, leaving a lot of the design up to chance. Which means your secrets are literally just random rooms attached to the main map with a fake wall seperating them. There is no challenge, there is no speed, there is nothing satisfying about stopping from double jumping, dashing, exploding everything to "stop and listen" for a rushing wind noise.

You don't seem to understand the point that the way you have designed your secrets is literally nothing like anything found in an old school FPS and your insistance that it is makes me question how many old school games you've actually played and taken the time to understand the design behind.


As an aside:
And with every reply to critique or suggestion of your game being "Thanks for the feedback" or "I like it this way" makes you as a developer seemingly unwilling to take feedback seriously. I've read these forums and the way you reply to so many people on here is either so dismissive or contrarian it seems like you're not even willing to discuss the idea that something in your game may not be as fun as you think it is. It's frustrating and really turns me off your game.

I'll be gone for awhile, maybe I'll drop back in whenever Ep. 2 is released and see if any significant changes take place in this game. Otherwise it's going to be another "well that was fun for eight hours" that I never touch again, and that makes me sad because I really really like the foundation of what you have here.

[ItBurn]

Sorry you feel that way, but while we disagree with many suggestions from people, we also agree with many of them, even if you might not have seen this yourself. We can't satisfy every player and disagreement is impossible to avoid.

We've had the secret discussion many times on the forums and on Discord and we've seen it from almost every angle.

If you had fun with your eight hours, this is a huge success in my opinion and I see absolutely no reason why you can't have fun again with EP2.

[Tomorrow ^\DA/^]

Finding secrets only became an issue for me in the final levels, with those rocky textures. Before then they were hard to find, but not impossible if you take your time and pay attention. I love the way you guys have implemented the sound for the secrets - I've wandered through a room looking for something and followed the sound. Makes life so much better.

[Mike GGGames]

Secrets are fine as is. Easy to find and is just a small bonus coupled with Easter eggs.

[Dr. Darklight]

I love the secrets in this game. I don't think anything should be touched.

[1mbalanced]

Originally posted by Dr. Darklight:

I love the secrets in this game. I don't think anything should be touched.

seems like you dont even own the game lol

[Kyur]

The secrets work for me in the game, although I had harder times finding them recently, which might be patch-related. Has the volume of the wind sound been lowered, or is it just me ...?

Anyway, the secrets work for me. What I still hate since old Doom days: Secrets within secrets. Really annoying.

[DOOMDUDE89]

As an old school FPS gamer, the secrets in this game have no excuse for how terrible they are. With modern engines and prefabricated maps in mind, Doom 2's free map creator Obsidian can not only build better maps with better architecture, but that includes secrets as well.

When I first bought this game, I thought it had a lot going for it. The cracks in the walls fit thematically for the first few levels when you're surrounded by caves. I was genuinely excited to see what finding the secrets in later maps would entail.

Then I found out every single secret in this game ( early maps only, even if it doesn't fit the map theme anymore,) is just a damn crack in ANY textured wall. What a massive let down. I figured when free software could make map exploration a ton of fun, a paid product could certainly do better.

The audio cues to find said secrets are not enough as is. They are far too quiet compared to not only the game's music, but its ambient sound and howling wind.

Oh, and another brilliant idea to keep secret walls immune to splash damage from explosive weaponry. Sure would have been nice every once in a while to find a hidden alcove after battling through a tough horde and get some extra gold in the process.


An army of Yes-men will never detract from legitimate criticism. Your secrets are bland and boring, and like Lizard said, just another check mark under the automap Saying, "HEY YOU MISSED A SPOT. Comb the entire map over again!"


The only old school FPS games with harder to find and more annoying secrets would be the original Wolfenstein 3D, and Rise of the Triad, but those were only engine limitations making them so simple.

The fact that you have to point out you've had a many discussions on various boards about the issues with secrets in your games, is not a bragging point. It simply means that you listened to the loud minority.

[ItBurn]

There are many secret types in the game that aren't cracks in the walls. They're entirely optional and there's also a pet that helps you detect them if you're having a hard time finding them. The secrets in the game are the way they are because that's how I like it. I'm sorry you don't, but you can't expect every game to be perfect in every way for your tastes.

Edit: I'm locking the thread because the last post before you brought it back from the dead was 5 years ago and everything has changed since then. You may create another thread if you want to continue the secret discussion.