The Ottoman Issue !

[Quade]

Since the Release of this Game i own this with a Boxed Version but even with Elite Units of the East the Ottomans are ♥♥♥♥.

Tehir Elite Units are not Elite, no one needs that funny looking Archers etc.

What i always had wondered is how the Ottomans Hold so long their borders if they lack of their Army Quality ? But after the Release of Rome 2 i don´t wonder anything what comes from CA.

[Faramir's Rangers]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r63gU_xOck8

[Quade]

Originally posted by Kumelowski:

Bro, Janissaries wouldn't be using European drills.

They don´t need to use European Drills, nobody wants Square Formation or even Bayjonets for them but atleast rank by fire.

"The volley tactic next appeared in early 16th century Europe when the Ottoman Janissaries clashed with European forces at the Battle of Mohács on 29 August 1526 - The Janissaries equipped with 2000 tüfenks (usually translated as musket) "formed nine consecutive rows and they fired their weapons row by row"

Until their resolution they used this and they even not have reloading Skill or Accuarcy like other Elite Units.

[Insaniac]

Yeah but that's because they're, "on paper" elites. Which is to say that they're Elite in terms of status, but don't have the ability to go toe to toe with Swiss Guard (for example). If all the Janissary units had rank fire then they'd become unbalanced. Janissaries cost what? 820 credits? 45 Acc, 40 Rel, 8 Morale, AND an inspire buff for only 10 credits more than Prussian Line Infantry? That's not good for balance. You're not supposed to get firepower out of them via rank fire, you're supposed to thin the unit so it has more men in the front rank. I've used Janissaries. That's how you get them to put in good work.

[Quade]

Originally posted by Kumelowski:

Yeah but that's because they're, "on paper" elites. Which is to say that they're Elite in terms of status, but don't have the ability to go toe to toe with Swiss Guard (for example). If all the Janissary units had rank fire then they'd become unbalanced. Janissaries cost what? 820 credits? 45 Acc, 40 Rel, 8 Morale, for only 10 credits more than Prussian Line Infantry? That's not good for balance. You're not supposed to get firepower out of them via rank fire, you're supposed to thin the unit so it has more men in the front rank. I've used Janissaries. That's how you get them to put in good work.

They were Elite on Paper? maybe they lost superiority against European counterparts but surely they were on part with them.

They can limit them on 10 Units since the Ottoman Empire was able to afford more then his counterparts and surely was not so weak like it showed in this Game.

Any Line Infantry with rank by fire ability is able to smash them while they even can perform square the janissaries even don´t have this.

They are totally obsolete, ones you researched Nizami Cedit which takes too much time and even costs more then usual Line Infantry they are even better then them are not even Elite.

Btw there are many Wars which the Ottomans even were part on 1700 - 1800 and even there they used them.

One Example:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pruth_River_Campaign

The Swiss Infantry from United Province is surely limited in his number but they can also afford other Special Units from their Rooster like Guards or even Scots, but in fact they have the same stats like the Cairo Janissaries who are cannot rank by fire or even not can perform squade, as i said the janissaries doesn´t need to perform that square formation which will make them surely vulnerable to any cav and that will be an huge loss after loosing so fast your Elite Units, but in fact alteast they should be able to use rank by fire.

[Insaniac]

I'm telling you that Janissaries can pretty easily win against line infantry if you'd just use them properly. And the whole thing with the Nizam I Cedit units is to create a sense of technological development for the faction. The Swiss Infantry costs more than the Cairo Janissaries, and doesn't inspire nearby units. The same applies for Scots. And unlike the Janissary units, neither of those units has a heat fatigue resistance bonus. The Janissaries aren't actually as bad as you make them sound, you just need to know how to use them.

And your neighbors are losers. The Persians are weak, and Austria usually gets attacked by Prussia and Poland. As for Russia it's also pretty weak.

[Quade]

Originally posted by Kumelowski:

I'm telling you that Janissaries can pretty easily win against line infantry if you'd just use them properly. And the whole thing with the Nizam I Cedit units is to create a sense of technological development for the faction. The Swiss Infantry costs more than the Cairo Janissaries, and doesn't inspire nearby units. The same applies for Scots. And unlike the Janissary units, neither of those units has a heat fatigue resistance bonus. The Janissaries aren't actually as bad as you make them sound, you just need to know how to use them.

Making them vulnerable to any Cav attack and the big lack of Rank by Fire matters in this Game more then some Bonus for nearby Troops around them and you don´t have in Caucasia or Europe Heat to be heat resistant.

[Insaniac]

Bruh, extra morale for ALL the units near that unit? That's a pretty significant bonus. And cavalry won't beat Janissaries anyway. Cavalry doesn't have staying power in any kind of melee fight, except for the really really high end cavalry (like Circassian Armored). I'm telling you, Janissaries really aren't THAT bad.

[Quade]

Originally posted by Kumelowski:

Bruh, extra morale for ALL the units near that unit? That's a pretty significant bonus. And cavalry won't beat Janissaries anyway. Cavalry doesn't have staying power in any kind of melee fight, except for the really really high end cavalry (like Circassian Armored). I'm telling you, Janissaries really aren't THAT bad.

aren´t that bad don´t changes the fact that they are BAD!!!

Cavalry beat in this game after a charge any Infantry who cannot perform square <--- fact.

Did you even play this Game?

[Insaniac]

Do you even use cavalry? Cavalry doesn't actually beat out most infantry units in a prolonged melee, and even if they get their charge in they wont win in a lengthy fight.

[Quade]

Originally posted by Kumelowski:

Do you even use cavalry? Cavalry doesn't actually beat out most infantry units in a prolonged melee, and even if they get their charge in they wont win in a lengthy fight.

Are you sure? maybe show us as please this in a proof where you just use an provincial cavalry against beylik janissary muskes <------ which are even not looking like janissaries they are just levents - marines.

[Insaniac]

Are you really telling me that you honestly believe that Provincial Cavalry will beat Beylik Janissary Musketeers in a fight? No shot. They have the same melee attack of 9, the Beylik Janissaries also have like double the melee defense. The Beylik Janissaries also have more morale, and over twice the manpower. It's no contest.

[Quade]

Originally posted by Kumelowski:

Are you really telling me that you honestly believe that Provincial Cavalry will beat Beylik Janissary Musketeers in a fight? No shot. They have the same melee attack of 9, the Beylik Janissaries also have like double the melee defense. The Beylik Janissaries also have more morale, and over twice the manpower. It's no contest.

When they charge they will decimate a lot of them which even will decrease thems moral and even if they will win, it will take a while and then you will just have only 10 -40 Units if they are not already been routing and they will.

Stop coming with vague arguments, just proove it in a form of a Video or just stay out of this discussion.

You also use Hussars or your loved Winged Hussars, atleast any Cav charge make them seriously vulnerable also you can test them against standard line infantry of europe with rank by fire.

[Insaniac]

Rank fire isn't triggered by cavalry. If a rank firing unit comes into range of cavalry only its first rank will fire. The exception is elephants. And I'm not making vague arguments. I'm providing you with verifiable unit stats.

[Quade]

Originally posted by Kumelowski:

Rank fire isn't triggered by cavalry. If a rank firing unit comes into range of cavalry only its first rank will fire. The exception is elephants. And I'm not making vague arguments. I'm providing you with verifiable unit stats.

Come on, stop talking and show us please how Beylik Janissaries Musketeers will perform against Cavalry since they cannot even perform Square.

I mean after a charge even Line Infantry can perform it and will get boost, very balanced and realistic as you said on your previous post about the current stage of this Game.

[Insaniac]

Just tested it. I put Beylik Janissaries against 2nd Hussar Regiment in melee and the Janissaries won. Frankly though, I wouldn't expect much against cavalry from units unwilling to use bayonets. After all, bayonets work because they increase reach, and because horses won't willingly run onto them.